18 Responses to “What does 'learning on your terms' really mean?”

1. 1 Fox May 9th, 2007 at 7:56 am

   ‘learning on my terms’ means that I select the way I learn and what I when learn. This may include sometimes ChinesePod.

2. 2 Ken Carroll May 9th, 2007 at 8:17 am

   Fox,

   This is the driving idea behind most of what we do. Different tools enable different levels of autonomy and choice. We want to present you with the ones that enable more choice. The blog post elaborates on that idea.

   Ken Carroll

3. 3 David Saunders May 9th, 2007 at 9:03 am

   To me, learning on my terms is a two part concept:

   1. Get help in identifying the learning style that is most effective for me.

   2. Having a service like ChinesePod satisfy those requirements as closely and completely as possible.

   I was thinking about this topic this morning before I saw this blog. A few weeks ago, I was sent an email from ChinesePod offering a discount for the (formerly known as) 8-week program (now Practice?) since I am already a premium subscriber. However, even with the discount, the service was more expensive and less flexible than one offered by another Chinese educational organization. I replied to the email (politely) saying so and giving the name of the other company. When I got a response, it was (also polite): “thanks we’ll try to learn from their business model” type of thing and it was left at that.

   Learning “on my terms,” to me (and specific to ChinesePod), means having the option to customize that Practice program to meet my educational goals. Right now, (I believe) the practice program is set for a call every day and costs X per month/year. I’m not interested in paying the cost of the program because I’m not interested in getting a “practice” call every day. Learning on my terms means I can learn 2 or 3 days per week and pay less instead of having to be restricted to the exact program ChinesePod thinks is best.

   The other company I subscribe to costs $100 per month and offers unlimited (subject to abuse policy) lessons, with a live teacher on a Skype based webcam. I can schedule online, any day or time that I want to take the lesson and I can specify that I want to focus on vocabulary, or grammar, or something else. If ChinesePod could offer something similar, I’d probably switch to them. The key, for me, in “learning on my terms” is efficiency and flexibility.

4. 4 Fox May 9th, 2007 at 11:47 am

   Ken
   I would CPod organize like a shelf. Leave the MP3 lessons part as it is and add other useful material.

   I could think of:

   Graded reading material (Chinese only) for those that want to learn reading

   Graded spoken short stories (Chinese only, no English, I know that already)

   Newspicks (simple to read)

   There could be more.

5. 5 AZERDOCMOM May 9th, 2007 at 1:38 pm

   Ken

   “On your terms” means customizing the available materials CPod has to offer to my needs, my attension span, my life style. You are absolutely right that this “learner-centric” model is increasing in other industries. I have commented before regarding this issue, but as a practicing physician, I must continuously keep my medical knowledge up-to-date; it’s a challenge to fit that knowledge acquisition into my hectic life. Services such as www.cmedownload.com was created with flexibility in mind (it’s for emergency physicians’ continuous medical education.) There are podcasts, videocasts, med ed credits, etc. And it is easy to use. That’s key.

   In the same manner, CPod offers a buffet of mandarin language learning tools for the subscriber to pick from. The offerings suits the casual as well as the serious learner. The level of competence of the staff shines through and allows us to trust CPod. The personalities are delightly and likable. The short podcast formats fit just right with the length of most adult attention spans these days. And, despite the nay-sayers, V3 is easy to use. That’s key. I could go on and on with praise. But, I won’t. I’ll simply say, once again, thanks for the great service you offer the mandarin-loving world.

6. 6 hanyu_xuesheng May 9th, 2007 at 2:15 pm

   The podcasts are the biggest asset of CP.
   With CP one can learn a lot of situational structures that are often more useful than those one learns from a classic textbook.

   But sometimes I feel lost in an “ocean of podcasts”, jumping from one to the next.

   So I miss most in CP:

   1) Reinforcement of material - i.e. if I learned some new vocab or grammar items I would like to reinforce this material with one, two lessons/podcasts in different situations/contexts without introducing new material in “reinforcement lessons”.
   Such a group can also cover a certain grammatical structure in different aspects.

   2) Much better coverage of chinese characters. Learning characters with flashcards is not enough. The learner must build a character network in his brain, so he needs to know some hints about ethymology, needs to know similar characters of a given one, and needs some menemonic hints.
   Examples (in German):
   http://chinesisch-lernen.blogs.....n-mit.html (Some insight about characters with 埶)
   http://chinesisch-lernen.blogs.....nente.html (characters with 專(专) as component)
   http://chinesisch-lernen.blogs.....ndmap.html (mindmapping on 及 and similar characters)
   http://chinesisch-lernen.blogs.....esmal.html (characters with 甬)
   http://bp0.blogger.com/_JgA9wT.....i-sein.png (shi - to be, another mind map)

7. 7 Marc May 9th, 2007 at 2:38 pm

   Podcasts are great but IMO it would certainly help the CP business model if additional services and material could be added. I am sure that if beginners could have a choice between the pick-and-choose model of current podcasts and a progressive course, you would attract more new customers. This could fit in perfectly with the ‘on your terms’ philosophy. The podcasts could then evolve to extra material, extra input to consolidate the language and add the necessary cultural elements and the tons of vocabulary in different contexts that one needs to be able to ‘really’ speak a language.

   Similar inroads could be made with writing hanzi, reading material and listening material (as Fox suggested) etc. Now I have to look for extra material to advance my studies far more often than I really want to.

   And….the gap between elementary and intermediate is still as wide as ever IMO, when is something going to be done about this. Are you sure you are not loosing a lot of customers at this point? Do you have an idea of your drop-out ratio? At what level it occurs and for what reasons?

8. 8 hanyu_xuesheng May 9th, 2007 at 3:05 pm

   I second Marc’s statement: “the gap between elementary and intermediate is still as wide”.

   As an “Upper Elementary” listener to your podcasts, I feel very uncomfortable jumping to “Intermediate”.
   I am unable to follow the banter in Chinese, so in the moment I try to concentrate on the dialog. What about some podcasts for an audience like me helping to understand everything (full transcript incl. banter)?

9. 9 Begging you. May 9th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

   ChinesePod has been a great learning tool for me, so I hope that you will not take my comment as anything but constructive criticism.

   Would it please be possible to have the non-native speakers speak less Chinese? In particular, I find Ken’s pronunciation and tonality non-standard. I less to Chinesepod for sometimes hours a day, and I worry that I will replicate Ken’s mistakes.

   Chinesepod is based in Shanghai–where you have access to millions of native Chinese speakers. It makes very little sense for your legions of listeners to learn pronunciation and listening skills from non-native speakers, even the non-native speakers (like John) with excellent pronunciation.

   I would love to continue to use Chinesepod, but I’m really worried that the foreign accents of the non-native instructors will make it even more difficult for me to speak with standard pronunciation and to understand native speech.

   Thanks–and please don’t be insulted. You’ve created a great learning tool!

10. 10 chinesepod May 9th, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    Begging,

    I don’t teach pronunciation. I stopped doing the intermediate lessons a year ago. Nor do I appear in any but the very earliest of the dialogs. Are you trying got put me out of a job?

    Ken

11. 11 F1B1 May 9th, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Begging,

    I thought that at first too, but I look at it as trying to recognise the same language with a different accent. Assuming at this stage I am more likely to speak to non-Chinese speakers I find it strangely helpful to listen to Jenny’s pronunciation AND Ken’s. I also like that I CAN pick that Ken’s pronunciation is not as good as Jenny’s, so the lessons must be working.

    Phoebe

12. 12 Jingawee May 9th, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    I appreciate Ken speaking Chinese. Don’t put him out of his job. I don’t want to praise him, but it’s true ( for me) that he’s a great valaue for the show. And.. his mistakes in pronunc. keep me alert.

13. 13 Marc May 9th, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    The value of Ken in the Newbie and Elementary lessons are not his pronounciation I thought that was clear to everyone by now. What he brings to the lessons is freshness, questions about culture and language to which we can relate, magic in his interaction with Jenny and many other things. Last year, when I started using ChinesPod Ken was the guy who stood there as an example showing me what I could also achieve, given enough time and effort. A role model of sorts. BTW I would give a lot to be able to speak and understand as much as Ken does at this moment…

    As for native speakers I believe we are entitled to the very best standard pronounciation. I believe that CP is aware of this. I believe that some of the audio material is not 100% up to this, especially in the older stuff the choice of speakers was not always optimal it seems. (I have this from native speakers to whom I sent some of the audio material, including recordings of my own voice). I hope that there will be continuing attention and focus on this point.

14. 14 Prez Life May 9th, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    “Learning on your terms” doesn’t mean anything. Learning is always on one’s own terms. It is like “seeing with your eyes”.

    The phrase has an excellent ping to it, though. It is a good slogan.

    CPOD is: A box of tools. You can’t build a complete house with it, but it will enable you to do much of the framing and trim work.

15. 15 Lorean May 9th, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    To me, “Learning on your terms” is a blessing and a curse. One one hand, I can obtain sufficient resources for independent self study. I am not held back by peers or teachers. On the other, responsibility for putting in the hours rests solely on me. I can be as hard-working or lazy as I want.

    To: Begging you. (if that is really your name)

    I think listening to Ken’s mistakes provides a basis identifying mistakes, and thus improving ones pronunciation.

    Given Jenny and the recurring voice actors, there are plenty of solid examples to learn from.

    Furthermore, if you can’t process non-standard Mandarin, then you are useless in any real life function. I’ll use a conversation I had with a student to illustrate this point:
    ——————————
    北京人不说标准的普通话。
    哪里的人会说标准的普通话，我找不到。
    电视剧的人

    People in Beijing don’t speak standard Mandarin.
    Where do people speak standard Mandarin?
    On the T.V.
    ——————————

16. 16 Cornelia May 10th, 2007 at 4:30 am

    “Learning on my terms” means that I can choose from a varied menu that caters to more than one learning fashion/approach. I like the image of the shelf.

    CPod has greatly improved on catering for my Birkenbihl approach by the pure-dialogue-mp3s of V3. Just two tiny details are missing for perfection:
    (i) no 2 sec’s for “chinesepod dot com” in the beginning - just do as SpanishSense in their pure dialogues. Would save me the effort to set the iTunes options to start as of sec 3.
    (ii) identical podcast description as the full-lesson-mp3 - this will save me storage space on my iPod because I do not need to keep the full lessons. BTW where is the promised pinyin?

    I would put as many things on the shelf as might be sought by a relevant number of customers. This need not necessarily be developped on your own - perhaps you can just link to e.g. MDBG dictionnary and satisfy requests for stroke-orders etc. Find reselling business models if needed.

    I, too, miss one item on the shelf: explanations about your banter in Chinese. Just the most-used sentences (I am sure it is easy for your Academic team to compile them!), maybe presented in the style of expansion sentences. This could ease the gap between levels.
    Is it really intended that I find CLO_043 on ChineseLearnOnline in order to learn what your Elementary “duì huá di yi/er/san bian” means? Should I subscribe to them for a while after my premium subscription at CPod in order to progress to Intermediate level, however other aspects at them are very boring or contradictory to Birkenbihl [way too early ‘repeat after me’]?
    1-stop-shopping is what I would wish for.

    Needless to say that I am eagerly awaiting the grammar guide on your shelf - a very good project idea! I just hope that all V3 feedback did not discourage you so much that you wait until 100% assumed perfection before publishing…

17. 17 Ken Carroll May 10th, 2007 at 8:43 am

    Prez life said,

    “Learning on your terms” doesn’t mean anything. Learning is always on one’s own terms. It is like “seeing with your eyes”.

    Er, I don’t think so. The slogan is about choice - choosing the time, the place, the content for yourself. Doubling up the podcasts with other activities and consuming them when and where you wish, for example. It’s about making decisions for yourself, building your own course of study, figuring out your options, and all the while having a voice.

    What choice do you have in the traditional setting? You have a set schedule, a textbok that you follow page by page, and pre-arranged lectures from a teacher that you have no choice in, etc. It’s staggered, linear, and the last I heard was that you could not change any of that.

    There’s plenty of documented evidence that learners who make their own decisions achieve more than those who just sit and do as they’re told. For the best overview on the subject try Phil Benson’s excellent ‘Teaching and Researching Autonomy in Language Learning’.

    As for ’seeing with your own eyes’, did you go to school for 15 yars to learn how to see with your own eyes? Did you have tests and grades in it?

    I’m not sure why you woud imply that the slogan had no meaning or thought behind it, but I can tell you that it is very meaningful to me. A a lot of people around here spend a lot of time trying to make it happen.

    Ken Carroll

18. 18 chenggwo Mar 29th, 2008 at 2:04 am

    ‘The value of Ken in the Newbie and Elementary lessons are not his pronounciation’

    Actually, it is his pronunciation that is important.

    I couldn’t disagree more with ‘Begging you’.

    The technical linguistic term is morepheme versus phoneme. Ken’s pronunciation is not bad. It’s a little stiff, but it also reflects the way someone is taught to speak as opposed to a native naturally speaking. As a native speaker, she has an accent which creeps in sometimes (although rarely). This means that once in a while, where they differ, Ken is more ‘correct’ than she is. But every native speaker pronounces things differently depending on what part of what city they are from. We have to get used to these differences if we want to understand real Chinese people when we go to China. Learning to be flexible in understanding the slight variations in pronunciation is very importnant whie learning a new language.

    I am sure Praxis has a deliberate policy of pairing a native speaker with one who learned the language as a second language. We who are newbies or elementary podcast users have zero chance of speaking Mandarin any better than Ken does. I like to shoot for an accent midway between the two so that it is natural, yet is correct by the teaching standards. Without the contrast between the accents I (and I think all newbies) would be lost. I would not know how accurate I need to get in my pronunciation and would over analyse the native accent, trying to sound exactly like the native speakers even though other native speakers would sound different anyway. I’d get bogged down in pronunciation and would fail to make fast enough progress.

    Ironically, the very ones who are most analytical and picky about the details of pronunciation and grammar (like me) are the very ones that most need the contrast between the natural native accent and the learned, theoretically correct accent.

    According to Wikipedia, I am confusing morpheme with phoneme and phoneme with allophone. Here are the relevant definitions:

    A morpheme is the smallest linguistic unit that has semantic meaning. In spoken language, morphemes are composed of phonemes (the smallest linguistically distinctive units of sound).

    A phoneme is the smallest structural unit that distinguishes meaning. Phonemes are not the physical segments themselves, but, in theoretical terms, cognitive abstractions or categorizations of them.

    Phones that belong to the same phoneme, such as [t] and [tʰ] for English /t/, are called allophones. A common test to determine whether two phones are allophones or separate phonemes relies on finding minimal pairs: words that differ by only the phones in question.
    For example, the words tip and dip illustrate that [t] and [d] are separate phonemes, /t/ and /d/, in English, whereas the lack of such a contrast in Korean (/tʰata/ is pronounced [tʰada], for example) indicates that in this language they are allophones of a phoneme /t/.

    I guess I am trying to contrast phones (the actual sounds people make) with phoneme (what the hearer is likely to take the sound to mean). But I guess these definitions are not likely to help anyone.

    So, let me put it another way. The only people who speak Mandarin ‘corretly’ are people from one specific neighborhood in Beijing. A couple from that area would need to be persuaded to come down to Shanghai for the podcasts. However, once we got to China we would be ill-prepared to cope with the fact that almost no one in China pronounces Mandarin exactly like that. At first, we would not understand anyone, until we got used to the fact that there needs to be a little wiggle room concerning how things need to be pronounced. But wait! that is exactly what we are getting now when we hear two people pronounce Mandarin so differently, yet arguably both correctly.

    I will empasise my point once again. The reason ChinaPod podcasts work so well is because two people with the same accent are never put in the same podcast. I would not listen to them at all if they did.

    In every language there are words that are pronounced more differently from person to person than others. I respect the fact that from time to time Jenny corrects Ken’s pronunciation. I for one trust that she does not do it more often because it is not necessary (because he does a good job). It would even hurt the podcasts if there was tension over Jenny’s pronouning Mandarin more correctly more often than Ken. I just wish this would not become an issue for either of them, because I think it is perfect the way it is. The idea that the learner should not get too bogged down in correct pronumciation too early is part of the teaching style at ChinaPod and that is the way it should stay.

    Listening to people with different accents encourages us to listen for what is important and what is not important in order to make sense of the sounds of Mandarin when listening to people with different accents once we get to China. Initially we cannot hope to have a better role model for correct prununciation than Ken. It is something that must change over time as we learn the language until finally we learn the specific accent of the people we converse with every day. If I moved down to Mississippi I would start to talk like them in a couple years even if I tried not to. It is something that constantly changes with context.

    I talked too much didn’t I? Well, what I am saying is despite the fact that they speak so differently, neither one has a more correct accent or pronunciation really, with the exception of when Jenny feels she should correct Ken. At no other time. So let them proceed just as they have; they are doing a great job.

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