We have more men than women in the ChinesePod community. I don’t have the exact stats right now, but my guess is that it’s at least 55/45, but possibly as much as 60/40. I’d like to know why. Do we fail to cover topics that women might be more interested in, or fail to accommodate women in some other way?
Are western women (relative to western men) less interested in visiting China, learning Chinese, or understanding its’ culture? Are they less inclined to study a language out of interest or as a hobby? I wonder what the studetn number ratios are in the universities here and overseas? Anyone got any great explanations?
As an aside: For some years my role at the Kai En language schools was marketing. It occurred to me that women in China are very much the decision makers for almost every family consumer purchase (not to mention health services, home appliances, education, etc). They don’t just ‘hold up half the sky’ - they control the money and they run the show. (And long may they continue, of course!) Despite all this it was always difficult to get any data on women as consumers. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a business book on the subject of marketing to women, in any language. Again, comments are welcome.
Ken Carroll
I’m in a second year course at a state university. The ratio is probably 1/3 male to 2/3 female. I don’t know if it is always like this. First semester was a little more evenly balanced. I am the only caucasian.
Good question. Just thinking about it a little, I’m curious about:
-Internet, blog, etc. gender tendencies.
-Western women learning languages from ‘zhong4nan2 qing1nu3′ countries.
-Romantic patterns in which Western men dating Asian women are more prevalent than vice versa.
Should be a real interesting discussion (that hopefully won’t be dominated by men ;-).
ron
reflects the gender ration in mainland China, a country therefore unattractive to women?
Tv
oops, I meant ‘ratio’ of course
I make no claims that my previous comment with Chinese class demographics is representative of the US. It is more likely not.
While thinking about this after my previous post, I opened my newspaper (yes, the printed type) to find this article about language demographics in the South Bay Area on the front page: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld.....832199.htm
I would think that 80% of it is as Ron stated “Romantic patterns in which Western men dating Asian women are more prevalent than vice versa.”
I consider you spoiled. I would regard 55/45 as a dream quota. In our business classes the ratio is about 65 / 35. And during my study times (Information Systems, first half of the 90th) we had something like 95 / 05 (with 03 of the 05 being Chinese!). We even coined terms like “PH Tourism” - “tourism” to the college of education, which had reversed quotas
Regarding the reasons I guess Ron in DC listed them all. Who reaches a position both career and family wise that allows and demands a position abroad? There is still a lot of subliminal 重男请女 in our western culture.
The Chinese class I attend started out with 5 students, of which i was the only male. After several months we now have 7 full time students, 4 or which are male.
My wife is learning too but my name is on the ChinesePod account.
I am attending a class in UK with 100% men! There are three different motivations for these male students ie:
1. Chinese girlfriend/ wife
2. Visited China on Business
3. Intellectual Challenge
I would suggest that all three of these would tend to favour the men!
OK, I’ll be the first fem to check in here.
Ken asks:
Do we fail to cover topics that women might be more interested in, or fail to accommodate women in some other way?
Are western women (relative to western men) less interested in visiting China, learning Chinese, or understanding its culture? Are they less inclined to study a language out of interest or as a hobby?
I say to all of these questions, NO NO NO & defitely NO.
For what it’s worth, I LOVE CP & do not feel slighted in any way by content.
I also agree with Gabe & Ron. Now if we want to get into a discusion of why that is so….hopefully not necessary. (I am reminded of a disturbing period in the lower east side in which a male musician was nobody without a Japanese girl hanging onto his arm.) I would guess that many western men in China for business or other reasons are consciously or unconsciously dreaming of returning with a Chinese wife. I myself am aquainted with SIX western men who did just that.
Henning’s point is also true: in general, women are less inclined or able to leave friends/family/children for solo travel to a foreign country. Also less attracted to the idea, and that is hard to explain if you have never been a woman traveling solo ANYwhere. It is not the same liberating experience that men are priveleged to.
But there is another large community that travels to China to further their studies - western practitioners of Chinese Medicine. This group, I believe, has had a female majority since the schools first opened.
Every Chinese language group I have attended in the U.S. has a balance of sexes.
And for a non-sequitor, I was told about 10 years ago that aproximately 80% of academic Sinophiles (doing some work related to China) are either left-handed or Jewish.
I can’t answer your question. I’m male, neither Jewish or left-handed, and not looking for a wife, not even planning to move to China. My wife is fourth generation Chinese-American. My ancestors came from Europe, evidently, but my family lost track of when or where from. My wife is a bit of a Euro-phile and has no interest in learning Chinese, although she has dabbled in several European languages. I got interested in Chinese, because many of my co-workers speak it at work and I’ve gone on some business trips to China and Taiwan. Then I got interested in Chinese, becaue it is interesting and it is satisfying when I succeed in communicating in another language.
I have to admit I’m learning Chinese because my wife is native Taiwanese, and she’s learning English because I’m American. I think ChinesePod is perfect for me, but she would never consider listening to a podcast to broaden her English. I think the nature of a podcast is too passive for her, and she needs to be more interactive in order to learn. I don’t want to generalize, but I think women in general are more responsive to interactive learning. It is a fact that women tend to talk more per day on average than men, so I think it’s natural that a language training course for women would be more effective if it involved speech as well as listening.
Ken,
To check if this is a Chinese pod “likeability” problem you might try finding out the ratio of men/women in local schools for some baseline data. When I was back in Taiwan most of my classes had more women than men but many of those women were on a year abroad program.
Second, I wonder if class learning is intrinsically more interesting to women whereas individualized learning over the Internet is more palatable to men. In this situation the usage differences have nothing to do with CPod but have everything to do with the medium.
Finally, and more importantly do you have a better retention rate among men than women who try the free seven day program? If so, then I would lean towards the idea that your content (and your talent) is, in general, more attractive to men.
I don’t find a ratio of 55/45 worrisome. This may simply reflect on computer ownership or usage in the general population. I would consider 60/40 a problem. I think a more interesting statistic is who among your listeners is more apt to stay long term.
Of course, I suspect you have already taken all this into consideration.
From my experience working with high school students, teenage girls are more willing to explore other cultures than teenage guys. Boys are generally more interested in sports and videogames. I have also noticed that girls are less likely to play with gadgets than boys. I agree with the point that adult Caucasian men are more likely to fantasize about having a Chinese female counterpart than a Caucasian female is to dream of having a Chinese mate (more for the look than the culture - a white woman with Asian behavioral characteristics would not be attractive to an asian-phile male). However, that does not mean Caucasian women are not interested in learning Chinese. The channel of learning is the main culprit, as women enjoy a more interpersonal mode of learning. I would suggest that ChinesePod find marketing outlets that reach females who are comfortable with gadgets and technology - professional and travel magazines/websites/etc. that cater to women.
SHOCKED - Actually I’m surprised it’s not 90% male to 10% female. If your statistics are correct then I think Cpod is extremely well-suited to women and retains them.
In terms of marketing, I can’t believe you say you’ve never seen a book on the topic, you haven’t been looking! Which is good since you’re married ;p
Book covers sell women on legs.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com.....286-786290
Marketing to Women: How to Understand, Reach, and Increase Your Share of the Largest Market Segment
http://www.amazon.com/Marketin.....0793159636
On a purely superficial level, taking a re-look at the website, yah, it’s not particularly enticing to a ‘focus-group soccer mom’ participant. Strong red, black, grey — going back to design, you’re definitely not looking like,
RealSimple magazine
http://www.realsimple.com/
I would agree with the last comment on site design. It seems that the CPod site aims to be gender-neutral, but it does have a very “techy” feel to it. The layout, usability, and font remind me of other open-source Drupal sites (I write content for websites.)
Sites like Daily Candy that cater to women feel like opening a magazine, with their strong minimalist visual elements and breezy tone. I’m not speaking for all women, but some may be put off by the amount of info on the main page and lack of hand-holding navigation. As for me, I don’t mind, but I work with the web on a daily basis.
On a more personal note: As a Chinese-American female, I’m learning Mandarin partly because of my background, so I can’t really speak for reasons for sudden interest.
My fiance, though, is learning just because he has always wanted to become fluent in another language. He was learning Spanish when we met, but when I started Mandarin he decided it would be fun to learn together. That said, I use ChinesePod more than he does, and he works in IT. Go figure.
By the way, how are you calculating the ratio?
By account subscribers, forum posters, blog commentators, or all three?
Diana,
It’s interesting that you say that women may need more ‘hand holding’ in terms of navigation. I doubt if many men would write that, even if they thought it.
The percentages were calculated on numbers of paid subscribers, but it’s ballpark stuff because we don’t ask about gender in the questionnaire.
Ken Carroll
I fully agree with Diana. Us, women do not like to get involved into technical issues… those long discussions about data transfer, conversion… do not interest me at all. I want a website easy to understand and to use. Sometimes I get confused into Cpod navigation system.
Maybe Chinesepod should develop a more cultural approach. Women like to know about fashion, food, beauty, furniture, architecture, school system… A more personal and sensitive approach. The Saturday show gives a bit of it, but it is mainly music and movie (not the most female topics).
I also think that unfortunately your percentage reflects the reality. There are only a few Western women travelling to China on a regular basis for business. It is far and most of us have kids going to school or an husband expecting us to be at home every night.
Besides most Western companies having business in China use Chinese personal in their own export departments. It is easy to find and they do not only bring their language capacity, but also the culture understanding.
Myself I come to China every 2 months for 3 weeks. (Besides I fly at least 2 times a year to the States and a lot through Europe). But I am lucky to have a daughter who understands my job and is proud of her mother job. She also wants to have such a job… No problem with my husband, it is our company.
My first time in China was in 1979, so it was quite logical for me to get involved into the Chinese language. Not only for obvious business reasons, but also for personal interest. Next to Chinese, I speak 7 different languages.
I also think that learning Chinese demands a high motivation and time. I have never met someone just studying it for fun.. (I regret that too, it is such a great experience).
An easy question to answer. Nowadays more and more women are learning Spanish rather than Chinese. So you should start the SpanishPod ASAP……….!?
I’m female, and western, and have been quite addicted to ChinesePod since I stumbled across it a couple of months ago. I’m still astonished by it; I have absolutely no reason to need to learn Chinese apart from, possibly, the fact that my son is about to start learning at school and I want to keep up. But really it’s just the thing itself; I love listening to each new lesson for the way the words and meanings emerge out of the initial wash of sound. I don’t think you’re doing anything that might turn women away. (I don’t think the site is hard to use either, but I am a programmer by trade so maybe I’m just used to second guessing things that don’t work as intuitively as they might.)
HOwever; all the female friends I’ve enthused about it to say they don’t have time for it - all of them full-time mothers, now I come to think about it, and perhaps it’s having that time away from home/family when you can disappear inside the headphones that women with children find hard to achieve. That may be too much of a generalization, but I for one would find it difficult if I couldn’t listen during that wonderful empty time as I walk to work.
Jazz,
I appeciate thsi feedback. I’ve been in the training buisiness all my life, but when I hear comments like ” I stumbled across it a couple of months ago. I’m still astonished by it “, thyen I know that I will never lose my enthusiasm for it.
Great.
Ken Carroll
Even though there isn’t a way to calculate this, I’m curious as to the ratio of male to female iPod users!
On the streets and subways, I see a lot more males with iPods seemingly fixed to their ears than women. I’ve also heard from some males who said they listen to CPod at work, but not any females. (I personally am lucky to have a job where I can get in some listening for at least 2-3 hours a day.)
I guess this goes back to a female tendency (again, not speaking for all women) to want more social interaction, whether walking, using public transportation, or on the job. Podcasts, mp3 players, etc., minimize daily social interaction.
Although I was motivated to start learning Chinese because I wanted to give my son an outlet for his ability that his school wasn’t providing, I now do it because I love it! I’m a teacher & single mum and have a 100 mph job and a never-ending to-do list. I find learning Mandarin via CPod is one of the few things that takes my mind completely off everything else. I don’t think that the topics of the podcasts put me off at all but I do agree with the slightly male ‘look & feel’ of the website. I have drifted away from using the site and am relying more on the podcasts themselves. BTW, I’m not Jewish but I am left-handed!!
Liz
I think the main reason is because women use Internet, computers, technology in summary less than men
First of all let me express huge praise for the CPod website design in the one thing where the gender difference is biggest: CPod has no flickering frames at all ! It is a ‘quiet’ site that does not distract from learning (even if the red is not my favorite, but that is a minor detail that will never meet everybody’s taste). I am really thankful for that ! Believe it or not but I have some websites (news often) where I use a magazine to cover half of the screen in order to get rid of the flickering… alas Mozilla Firefox is no longer a solution since they use Adobe Flashplayer9, them bastards!
I do not find the navigation really intuitive, but it is consistent and took me a day or two to find out - the general content was always enticing enough to overcome it! Maybe 6 years of my professional life spent as an SAP consultant prevent me from being discouraged easily
Concerning content and topics covered I do like Cpod very much! Please do not change! You bring useful stuff and I read almost every transscript even from levels far too difficult for me Newbie/Elly. I would get seriously bored if you started to cover typical female magazine topics like suggested by dominique.
For the general question why the percentage of women is less than 50%:
According to my experience women are generally much more interested in languages than males. As they often have better success with traditional school methods I think they are less adverse to classroom learning and they enjoy the personal interaction. They may also be more patient with ineffective methods as long as other personal needs remain satisfied. Adult evening classes (German Volkshochschule) usually have way more women in language classes than men - but usually for typical vacation countries, which China is not yet.
Do not be discouraged if you get few female subscribers from western countries with poor childcare facilities or stupid morning-till-lunchtime schooling like prevailing in Germany: working mothers will not have any time to spare on extra language learning after juggling all. Full-time mothers will rarely feel use for it apart from also having no time because they think they have to excel as mothers which is why they are not working mothers, called “Rabenmütter”.
In German business world it is still no cutting edge to know a little Chinese - if needed they employ a Chinese directly.
Looking for boy-friends or husbands in China is a crazy notion to me: societies that think so poorly of a woman’s worth that they try to avoid female children by whatever means available (selective abortion if lucky, post-birth infanticide if less) are not enticing at all to get a good life as western well-educated woman.
So better go to Scandinavia to look for a nice mate who will share domestic duties and childcare and treat you as his equal.
Besides: a guy shorter than 1,80m can rarely be considered handsome
I’m a woman and I’m a huge fan of Chinesepod. I don’t find the website difficult to navigate at all. I certainly don’t require any “hand-holding” to use it. Frankly, I’m offended that such generalizations are even being made. I am learning Chinese because I find it interesting and challenging. In addition to Chinesepod, I also take lessons at NYU. I’ve found the classes to be composed of nearly an equal amount of men and women.
By the way, I also own an ipod, and most of my female friends do too!
That’s an interesting statistic! I’d have to agree that some of the reasons for less women using the site are probably that they don’t have time (although, just a suggestion, for some extra listening, I sometimes listen to them on walks)due to family, work, AND household obligations and maybe that the culture aspects are slightly more for men than women (stereotypically/generally). I think it’d be *awesome* for a fashion, school system, beauty, etc… aspect to be thrown into the Saturday Show or something. Also, the idea about women prefering interpersonal learning may play a part as well. I’ve been trying to convince my friend (who SAYS she wants to learn mandarin…) to do this with me for motivation and “group” practice, but she always says she doesn’t have the time, is too tired, or whatever:( Anyways, I’m a girl and I started using ChinesePod because, well, I found it when I was looking for a “FrenchPod” because I’m in French in school and want to be able to practice and learn more because my ultimate goal is fluency and simply because I like learning languages. Then I stumbled into ChinesePod and had always wanted to learn the language and intend to next year in college but never knew how I could without actually being in a class (since it’s such a different language from English and French in many ways). Ever since I was really little I’ve loved Asian, particularily Chinese, culture so I figured I might as well, I’ve always wanted to learn, and here’s my chance! I’ve gotten to the point where I consider myself Asian on the inside:)
I think that a more appropriate question would be “Why aren’t there more intelligent women learning Chinese ?” The focus should never be on absolute quantities but rather on the quality of the client-learners. Otherwise there is the danger of getting lost in a sea of statistics that may be subject to multiple interpretations. Whereas, definitions of intelligence, especially applied to language learning, are less subject to debate. For example, the gender gap in language learning ability tends to be huge and not easily traversed by the fairer sex.
Yeah, sure, Clever Dick. Whatever you say…
Ken Carroll
Clever Dick, when you say “For example, the gender gap in language learning ability tends to be huge and not easily traversed by the fairer sex” are you saying that men tend to fair better in language learning that women? I’m just wondering because I’ve always heard that women tended to do better in these kinds of subjects. Most of the girls I know studying a language are doing just as good as or better in their language classes than a lot of guys. Maybe these girls are just more motivated, but I think it might be pretty equal, unless there are some stats that I haven’t seen, which is obviously possible. And it usually seems to be the more intelligent girls that I know learning the languages…but then again, I hang around some pretty smart people:)
I’d be curious to see some of the statistics on this subject… (not to disprove you, just simply to know).
On another note, relating to ChinesePod’s male/female ratio and the intelligence quality idea, I would venture to guess that quite a few of the people on CPod are quite intelligent. In my experiences, it is usually the more intelligent people who seek learning outside of the manditory (and many users, like me, are here simply to learn)
Why do I always write so much?
Ken,
One question that may prove/disprove my hypothesis is are the stats coming off the payment records?
I know in my family that most credit card payments come off my fathers credit card rather than my mothers. (she may just have a plan to leave him with a massive credit card debt but I doubt it
) I also know this is true for my sister and her partner. But perhaps it’s just my family.
TIME - I have noticed some differences in buying patterns between myself and the fairer gender. I am very impulsive and compulsive with gadgets. I sometimes will do a lot of comparison on specs, etc., and then I will go to the store or online and plunk down a lot of money.
Others, not like I, tend to mull over the decision and consider many more factors. Do I have the time, do friends have it, how much, what color!, etc. They LOVE to shop.
This makes me think that the Cpod splashpage is a little to utilitarian, here’s today’s podcast, and the others, go to it. Remember that buying is really just a form of commitment, and what does it take to commit to Chinesepod?
I think in general Ken has moved into a much stronger emphasis on a collaborative, community learning paradigm, so why not make that front and center? Commit to a place where you can learn together, yet have all the individual freedom you want. This appeals STRONGLY to women, and to me, and to Gen-Y, and to grey beards.
Why are the podcasts front and center and not the community? If I already found the podcasts in iTunes I get them there. If I want mp3s, a click over to them ain’t hard. If I want RSS, that’s there. What’s up front?!! Is it an introduction to the Chinesepod learning community? Or is it an introduction to some mp3s? You’ve wasted an opportunity.
I doubt a change to this approach would drive away more cut-to-the-chase users. Yet it is more friendly to people who want to drop by, feel comfortable, chat, relax AND learn. And probably over time the more effective learning outcome environment. Convince busy people that podcasts WITHIN the Chinesepod community are most likely the ultimate time-sensitive and effective method out there.
A PATHWAY TO COMMUNITY - Chinespod in it’s present form has a lot of community, interaction and content. You already have lots of people who found this, saw this, helped build this. What you’re working towards is reaching out to MORE people, who for a lot of reasons, didn’t notice the goldmine. All the content is there, the community is there, the tools keep improving, but what’s missing? Is the pathway clearly there? Is it the first one emphasized? Is it friendly and engaging?
A: Chinesepod.com–>community + learning environment–>mp3
B: Chinesepod.com–>mp3–>community
Look at what you’ve got brewing on the plate and I think you’ll see this pathway is missing.
Does everyone here think it’s acceptable for Jenny to be called Johnny? I wouldn’t be impressed if someone repeatedly called me a girl’s name and then published it on the internet.
G,
I deliberately left that open to interpretation
Just wanted to stimulate some discussion on whether there are significant differences between males and females vis a vis language learning.
Personally, I suspect females have an advantage over males in terms of language ability (they love to talk, naturally).
I learn Mandarin because it is fun.
In my traditional class room at Foothill college, the ratio of males to females is about 50-50.
For my part I already have a Chinese spouse, so visiting China to find another is out of the question
However, it is interesting that the sex (gender is something that pronouns have) ratio is skewed the other way on ChinesePod to what it is in Universities in the US. (However, not that much different to the ratio in heavily technical classes.)
Wow gender wars on Chinesepod!
Dangerous area, can’t ….. resist ……
Men and women are not the same! (yaaay). I don’t think either is better or worse
I have often thought that women should have a huge advantage in language learning, they speak more words each day, they are better communicators and they have more brain cells devoted to communication.
The offset which addresses this balance is that men are often more competative (which helps even if you just compete with yourself) and biggie: Men, especially small boys are better mimics, whether it is miliatry equipment, scifi monsters, etc. etc. then boys have often have an uncanny ability to mimic it (strangly seems to go right back to hunter gatherer times when males may mimic animals to aid hunting and also mimic natural sounds to embelish campfire stories).
I think the ground is level for aquireing language, I talk to as many people as I can about language learning to find out their views, generally women I talk to seem less attracted to the concept of self study in the way that I approach it.
Ok generalisations abound, but lets not get too politically correct unless we end up stating that “on average” every “person” on the planet posseses one testicle and one breast (almost).
Ohhh yes, I married a women, never once considered marrying a man and the reasons are not entirely the obvious biological ones either.
Have to agree with Diana on this. My wife has me download any Cpod lessons to her iPod and rarely if ever uses the premium features unless I’m already on the site.
Well there are some women who don’t have kids, are not married or dating, who are not interested in China/Chinese just because of business but for the culture and the people… but I guess there are not so many of us.
And even if I’m not a nerd (sorry if that offends anyone) I still find it easy to navigate the website. I think it is good as it is.
I think a lot of men who are interested in China are there for the girls. And I think that sucks:( (Sorry, I’m single and I think it is really annoying that all interesting guys seem to have a Chinese girlfriend or want one… Waiting for someone to prove me wrong
)
-Kaixin
Interesting. I’ve thought that women might be less inclined to internet learn, but for social reasons rather site design ones (look/feel as well as navigational). I’d be receptive to digging deeper on that.
But I just can’t buy ‘busier than men’ or ‘talk a lot’ reasons. I just don’t see either in my overall personal experiences at all.
I think Kaixin is right. Of course, not everyone learning Chinese is looking for a date, but even so, to know that a lot of guys dig Asian girls, and you’re not one, could certainly limit enthusiam.
I have often thought that women should have a huge advantage in language learning, they speak more words each day, they are better communicators and they have more brain cells devoted to communication.
Well, there is plenty of dispute about all of these … Doreen Kimura in Sex Differences in the Brain discusses some of these.
What I discern from all the literature I have read is that it varies. On average, males have greater vocabularies in areas they are interested in (which can be predicted) while females have greater vocabularies in the areas they are interested in. Similarly, I have seen some males who can talk the leg off a horse once they get on their hobby horses, and there are plenty of people who are engaged in an endeavour to try to prove that women do not talk more than men, and so on.
As to language learning, I have seen female Cantonese speakers who cannot get past the differences in pronunciation between Cantonese and Mandarin and are thus not very effective language learners, and I have seen males who are very good language learners, but I have also seen females who are good language learners.
In the end, I put it down to motivation.
Kaixin says:
I think a lot of men who are interested in China are there for the girls. And I think that sucks:( (Sorry, I’m single and I think it is really annoying that all interesting guys seem to have a Chinese girlfriend or want one… Waiting for someone to prove me wrong
What does it matter? Really? There are still plenty of fish in the sea. Maybe you just need to get out more. BTW, is your name: 開心?
Ken
I MUST echo Cornelia’s plea: PLEASE DON’T CHANGE!!!!!!!
I am not a techie, in fact I often refer to myself as a Ludite.
Chinesepod is the most brilliant fabulous breath-of-fresh-air excellent website I have ever come across of any kind & I feel so lucky that it’s about learning Mandarin. Sure it took a few days to explore all the content & I still discover new features. This impresses me more!
If you guys change your look (incredible photos & lovely design), your priorities (lessons front & foremost!) or move to “girlie” content - fashion, shopping, etc., I will be crushed & have to crawl away in disappointment.
My interests/situation is similar to Kaixin’s. I AM a bit nervous looking ahead to so many intermediate lessons on business. I love the fables, jokes, and appreciate emphasis on culture, history, art, travel, medicine….
You did mention that you are working on phone lesson options. This is the one thing that would make all complete. I would love someone to talk to in Mandarin.
Thanks again for all your efforts. As for the stats, I hope you have been given enough reason by now not to worry.
Ron in DC repeats the meme:
to know that a lot of guys dig Asian girls
One observation I would make is that east asian (ie, Chinese, Japanese and Korean) females have hyper-feminine faces. This has to do with their zygomatic arches and their very neotenous features.
A corollorary, IMO, is that males who are interested in such features, are highly likely to be very family oriented.
I am reminded of a song: “It’s a fine line between …”
Richard Sharpe,
Maybe you are right and I was actually having a bit of a bad day
I wanted to rant a bit.
Yeah, my Chinese name is 开心 (my real name is Kaisa)
Hmmm seems everything is under dispute if you look hard enough, I am happy to accept that women are better communicators in at least one language (at least their own) just by observation (I tend to base a lot of thing on that). Apologies for mentioning brains, I haven’t observed many of those directly…..
Hi everyone,
This has been a very interesting discussion - I have to say that it had never occurred to me that the main motivation for learning mandarin for some men was so they could find a chinese mate! I’m female and I am learning mandarin purely for the intellectual challenge - I love the feeling of new connections forming in my brain when apparently random sounds and patterns suddenly become meaningful.
The community aspect of ChinesePod is what brings me back to the site each day, even though I can only download the podcasts at the weekend (my work computer blocks them, and my boyfriend usually monopolises the computer in the evenings!). I don’t know anyone else who is learning mandarin for fun, so it is great to know that there are people out there who are interested in the same subject. ChinesePod is a gem.
It’s been going enoguh that I can add my 两分.
I’ve never ever been in a language class where there has been more guys than girls. The last Chinese class I was in had just three guys and about 18 girls. It was the same for my linguistics classes. One class had a 50% ratio, but that was because there were only two of us in the class.
Conversely, the academic community tends to be more male-oriented. Whether this is because there are less opportunities for women or the academic side of things is less attractive or whatever I don’t know. (I am left handed but not Jewish…)
I should also add that I’m not necessarily looking for a Chinese girlfriend/wife. I’ve always found it slightly icky that people suggest that the best way to learn Chinese is to get a Chinese girlfriend. It stinks of language rape. Of course, if it happens as a by-product it’s neither here nor there.
I don’t think there’s an issue with gender ratios here. Marketing specifically towards something like that will probably get you into trouble.
“Language Rape”…
I like the way you think. In fact, I’m going to add that term to Wikpedia. Maybe define it as “the forcible acquisition of language from a willing foreign host”…
Da jia hao! I’m an African-American woman in the U.S. learning Chinese with about 15 friends. There are about 3 men and 12 women in the group. I also have 3 female friends who have lived in Taiwan to study Chinese and teach English.
Personally, I’ve always enjoyed learning language at my own pace. I’ve attended evening non-credit courses at community colleges, but many people just want to socialize. The interaction is nice if it’s centered around the language. But if it’s just chitchat, the interaction isn’t helpful.
I’ve also used other self-paced methods such as Pimsleur. I like the listen and repeat style of learning a language. So CPod is a great fit for me.
I am surprised to be get comments as “girlie”… They are great fashion designers starting to influence the world scene since a few years, most haute couture “petite main” have been moved to China, the “white skin” phenomenon is a quite interesting topic, the street fashion look (i am personally very amazed about the youth creativity), the Japanese influence in the youth, the gadgets madness,…and so on… this is also a way to discover a culture and it is as important as the music development and absolutely not boring…
I am not referring to any Elle, Glamour.. contents. And by the way I am into the music industry
For me the most important factor in choosing Chinese as a foreign is the challenge of learning a language that is completely “alien” to my cultural background, especially because of the writing system makes it very interesting and challenging.
I think few woman would share this kind of motivation.
I’m actually surprised that the ratio of females is as high as 40%, I would have guessed much lower.
Niina says:
> I have to say that it had never occurred to me that the main
> motivation for learning mandarin for some men was so they could
> find a chinese mate!
Yes, we can really be that shallow. Sorry to break the news to you.
Back in the mid-90’s, when white-male / asian-female dating became trendy beyond words in the Bay Area (SF area), the weekly magazine of the SF Chronicle had an article about it, including some very controversial reasons why. One of the interesting facts, however, was that of American-born Chinese, the miscegenation rates are very similar for males vs females (about 30% vs 40%, as I recall). [Data from 1990 census.] So why all this talk about while-males / asian-females? For non-USA born Chinese, however, the miscegenation rates were significantly different for males vs females, but I don’t remember the exact numbers. [Yes, I mixed Asian / Chinese freely in the above; not racism, rather than the article referenced only looked at Chinese, but this effect seems more pan-asian than just Chinese.]
Wow! It’s been interesting - sort of. Only one statistic hasn’t even been given a mention unless I just overlooked it, and that is AGE. I’m a left-handed, married with 2 kids (both adopted from China), and nearly 49 year old stay-at-home mom. (Let’s just say I was a late bloomer).
Although I am fast cruising upwards to the big 5-0, I don’t have any trouble navigating the site, I love gadgets, I own an iPod, I buy all the electronic gizmos we own and have to teach the hubby how to use them, and as far as motivation to learn Chinese, well, why the hell not? I am curious though as to the average ages of Chinesepod users. Are most of the Chinesepod users less than 30 years old? Is there an age ceiling? I suppose younger people are more accustomed to rapidly advancing technology and would tend to use podcast sites more often, but I like technology too. However, I find one drawback to attending school on the internet. I just don’t like learning by myself very much despite the fact that I am learning quite a bit of Chinese. I prefer the traditional classroom setting with a real, live teacher, right there in front of me, and other students to interact with. If I had access to a traditional University course in Chinese I would probably take it. I am highly motivated by “A’s” so I would study my cute little ass off and learn even more. It nearly killed me whenever I made a “B” for a final course grade when I was working on my music degree, plus, I just like being around people. But, I take what I can get. And since I am frequently chained to the house with the little darlings while the hubby is out earning the bacon, I sit home, fire up the PC, sharpen my pencils and listen to another Chinesepod lesson.
I’m serious about learning Chinese though. I’m also taking private lessons (one-on-one) each week with a native Mandarin speaker. I hope to take the kids to visit their homeland within the next 5 or so years, and I really don’t want to be 100% dependent upon a translator this time.
The only thing I would change on Chinesepod is the transcript page. I would shake it down to only the printed English and Chinese characters and NO other colors or graphics. Although it is very eye catching, there is way too much red. It eats up my printer color cartridges. Also, I would squeeze all the text and characters onto one page for the newbie lessons. I can’t help but be frugal and I don’t like wasting reams of paper.
Just my .02 worth - meig
I don’t think it has anything to do with Chinese or China. It has to do with guys, who will hunt around on the internet, sitting in front of the screen for hours on end, to find a new site.
I also would have guessed the female percentage would have been much lower. I think a good answer to your question is to compare the situation with another frequently asked question in the US: Why aren’t there more women majoring in science? The reasons, I suspect, are similar. There is a sense among Americans that I have encountered that sets the expectation that an intelligent woman is countercultural in many ways, that bra-size is far more important that intellectual development, and indeed, I have found on the job that I have to go to my male coworkers to even discuss anything like travel or ideas, like language learning, in order to break out of the “hair and makeup” conversation that dominates the female side of the corporate world I’ve been in. I was also raised in a family where the female role model handed to me as what I should aspire to was an illiterate woman who could barely even keep a house let alone anything else, that even sending a girl to college was considered bitterly controversial, even here in America as late as the 1990s. While it’s true that girls are better at language in school than boys, it’s also true that the culture is still resistant to women and girls taking the same kind of intellectual and physical risks that men and boys do, such as solo travel abroad or exploring foreign cultures in our otherwise monocultural, monolingual environment. Traditionally, women were not encouraged to even walk around town unaccompanied, while men could do anything, and some older women I know are still resistant to the idea of that kind of mobility and independence. I’ve mentioned in other places the fierce “English-only” movement in the US where people feel very threatened by exposure to foreign anything could also be a factor. What I think would be a more interesting demographic to look at is who studies Chinese by race, because I have found the fact that I cross racial lines to study Asian languages as challenging if not more challenging than gender to the people I encounter. As for the tech side of Chinesepod specifically, the problem may be as simple as I have found it to be: who wants to come home after spending all day on the computer at work and sit for another 2 to 4 hours on the computer some more?
I have to pretty much concur with Michele. I am surprised that even now, in the 21st century, girls are still being raised with inferior standards as compared to boys. They are still strongly encouraged (at least by capitalism) to remain weak and “girly”. If you don’t believe me take a trip to your nearest discount store such as Kmart, Walmart, etc…. and see how the toys are displayed. The girls have a section with lots of pink, dolls, pretty ponies with long hair to comb, and other crap, while the boys sections has lots of black, guns, extremely muscular super hero dolls, loud electronic games, etc….it’s absurd. Of course, our Christian conservative, evangelical BS dominated society certainly isn’t helping women move forward any - but that’s another can of worms.
My dad make it clear to me years ago that women were good for only 3 things - The naughty stuff that I can’t say here, domestic duties, and knocking around - usually upside their heads. Needless to say I haven’t seen him in over 25 years.
Eh, sorry for the rant. Ah, isn’t it interesting how blogs tend to digress……also, I’d like to apologize for my previous post. After I re-read it several hours later, it sounded like I was dissing Chinesepod a little. I really love it! It’s one of the most helpful websites I have ever found. If I could grab hold of it and kiss it I would!
meig
I am an American academic (female), learning Chinese to advance my research in the Chinese American community in the U.S. The classes I have taken in Chinese in New York were usually more than 50% women, with a high percentage of Chinese American students wanting to learn the language of their heritage. I was often the only Caucasian student.
I agree with others here that two things that might especially skew the Chinesepod group toward more men than women are 1) the techie aspect (although I myself am a total geek) and 2) women might prefer the social approach to learning, in the classroom with other students and a teacher to interact with. As for pursuing Chinese study in general, I think women do experience barriers to travelling alone and living abroad that men don’t feel. Men who are adventurous enough to do that may do so at the stage in their life where they’re likely to find a mate, so it may not be that they study Chinese in order to move to China in pursuit of a Chinese girlfriend or wife, but that they want to learn Chinese after they’ve travelled and met someone, or started a career.
I thought the age thing that Meiguoren raised was interesting, because I believe I am older than most users (50). I think that’s partly also related to the technical component — young men probably more likely to be into podcasts and such than older women. But also, just language study in general, I think it is harder as you get older. And it’s not because your memory is poorer or your learning skills diminished (although that might also be true). It’s because the older you get the more self-conscious you are about the goofy fumbling for words and saying the wrong thing that are a necessary stage of language acquisition. You’re just not as comfortable with sounding like a 6 year old! And for that, Chinesepod has an advantage — because it’s private, you can study without making your mistakes public.
That said, I really need to practice speaking with another human being, and I plan to post a request for a Skype partner on the community page here as soon as it will let me!
P.S. Can Lesli or someone come up with a source for that statistic, i.e. 80% of academic sinophiles are left-handed or Jewish? That’s funny! (But I guess I am an academic sinophile, and I am neither of these.)
I’m a woman and I am learning Chinese. My boyfriend is Chinese and I am not (I did not learn Chinese to find a Chinese boyfriend). I study Chinese at my university, where I see there is about an even ratio of men and women. Perhaps, as a previous person mentioned women prefer the more social/collaborative aspect to learning.
I think there may be perhaps some more complicated social reasons at hand. Some Western women may not view China as being as advantageous to women. Some women may base their opinions of China on what they learned from outdated history texts or movies, much of which could be outdated/misfocused. Those traditional images of Chinese women while somewhat interesting to Western men are not so to Western women. I think there are disparities in all cultures and inequalities.
I think though things are changing for women and women are becoming bolder. I shocked my mother greatly a couple nights ago and my boyfriend as well by deciding to buy a plane ticket to China. I will be going to Shanghai in May. Everyone thinks it is strange for a woman to travel alone, but I think a woman can travel alone as long as she is safe and does her research (at least in a country like China) : )
I should try to stop by the studio when I am in Shanghai as you complained once that no women ever visit. Well, maybe not.
I’m thinking about what Michelle said above — good point. The lack of interest in Chinese is related to a larger problem with women conforming to certain ’safe’ social expectations. But then why do western women learn other languages like French and Spanish as much, or more, than men do? Why is Chinese less popular?
Jill’s point above got me thinking it might have something to do with cultural perceptions of China as a whole. I just read an article in the BBC about how women in China have the highest suicide rates in the world. We hear this kind of news from time to time (population gender imbalance, female infanticide, horror stories in the countryside, forced marriages ect..). Sorry to raise delicate issues, but many of us grew up hearing this kind of stuff about China (often exaggerated and misunderstood), so it must shape the way we think on some level. For some women, this might be a discouraging factor, even if it happens unconsciously. For these reasons, maybe some women don’t feel like China will be the land of opportunity for them.
On a different note, my Chinese teacher here in the UK just got a full-time position teaching beginner Mandarin at a very posh girls school. So the tides are certainly changing.
Kai En,
To supplement Wendy and others, At Smith College the number of women studying Chinese is increasing exponentially. At Amherst College (coed, which Smith is not) more than half the students in Chinese classes are female. So I second the suggestion that you look at the statistics in schools. Chinesepod may be filling the gap for all those males who did not study Chinese in school.
In any case this is to suggest that maybe it is not the subject matter of Chinesepod, but the use the use of Chinesepod for people not enrolled in classes, or for the reasons others have mentioned, including that more males have Chinese wives than females have Chinese husbands.
In any case, I love the subject matter of Chinesepod, especially the recent one about black market guns and the Lili/Zhangliang romance. And, BTW, I am MUCH older than Wendy.
I should say two things:
1.) The Chinese teachers I have had at the university have all promoted Chinesepod as a good way to learn Chinese. Perhaps as Chinese study becomes more popularized, you will see the gender disparity diminish.
2.) Though there may be some negative stereotypes with Chinese male & female relationships. There are many positive things also. The Western world has no such notion of a sitting month and up until not so long ago, it would be difficult to find an American man willing to do the dishes. My father never did any dishes, laundry, or any other housework. My childhood memories of holidays always involved men lounging and chatting, while women busied themselves in the kitchen. I would have to say my Chinese boyfriend is much different. Though he has some traditional views, he cooks for me (I cook for him too of course), pours me tea, and is always kind. I was shocked right away by how much he would do for me, more than I think any other person ever has.
I have visited many chinese cities and photographed much. If who are interested we can share them. My email: zhouchangwen18@yahoo.com
I agree with Jill, nowadays, there are more Chinese men who would like to do the dishes, laundry, cook for their wives, take care of children, especially those Chinese men from Shanghai. Of course, those Chinese men who has traditional values do not like to do these things.
Wow Ken, you opened a can of worms! Disregarding for now some of the more inflammatory comments, I’m a western woman learning Chinese because of my interest in the culture but I make my living teaching French to(mostly women), who are seduced by the glamorous aspects of France - l’amour, fashion, champagne. Even my Chinese women friends want their daughters to learn French! Figure out a way to sell glamour and I think you’ll get more women interested. Or you just need to promote some really hot Chinese men
It’s only fair since so many listeners are apparently learning Chinese to pick up women…
Jill shouldn’t travel to China alone without a male companion. There are some Chinese laws that restrict female lone travellers (unless they have changed the laws recently). I know for sure that foreign men cannot stay in some parts of Chinese cities with their Chinese girlfriends. In my view, its only a bit more safer for a woman to travel to China than travel to Iraq or Afghanistan. Don’t become a target. Be safe.
Clever Dick said: “I know for sure that foreign men cannot stay in some parts of Chinese cities with their Chinese girlfriends.”
Really?
Tintin says:
I’m a western woman learning Chinese because of my interest in the culture but I make my living teaching French to(mostly women), who are seduced by the glamorous aspects of France - l’amour, fashion, champagne.
How sad. There is so much good literature in French. I am sure that even Hergé would agree. If I was to take up French again (I studied three years in high school) it would be to read French Literature, and to read Tin Tin in French.
It’s only fair since so many listeners are apparently learning Chinese to pick up women…
I did that in University, and English was sufficient. Of course, it helped that we were in the same Computer Science Honours class.
Richard- I like a good book as much as anybody, but…..
I think Bazza is having an anxiety attack right now.
Bazza,
Yes. There is a law in Beijing to this effect. My brother was not permitted to stay in the same condo apt. with his Chinese girlfriend. This was in the centre part of the city. For some reason, it was ok in the suburbs.
Wow - lots of controversy from a simple question. Just a few observations from a 53-year-old male…
I’m trying to learn Mandarin almost entirely for the intellectual challenge, and to keep this aging brain in gear. There’s all kinds of research to suggest that people who keep their minds active as they age are less likely to suffer from Alzheimer’s and the like, and maybe this will help (not that I have any symptoms yet… now what was I saying? - oh yes.) I doubt I’ll have the opportunity to ever get fluent, but I do hope to get to the point of being able to have simple conversations with my office mates. And to be honest, there’s a surprise factor that’s kind of fun: there are so very few western looking people who can say even a few words in Chinese (even here in very multicultural Toronto) that it’s impressive and surprising when you do so. I guess that this wanting to impress/surprise is a bit of a guy thing; that few women want to do it as much.
On the topic of whether women talk more, use more words, and so on, there is a huge amount of controversy on this topic. Here is a good start to the discussion, with a large number of links to related stuff:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl.....03894.html
I must admit that the idea of learning Chinese to find a Chinese girlfriend/mate is a surprise, and not just because I’m 53 and married. I know several western male/Chinese female couples, but in all cases they met and married here. I have never, other than on this blog, where a couple of people seem obsessed by it, heard anyone talking about this concept of “mate tourism” to China.
WendyW says above “But also, just language study in general, I think it is harder as you get older. And it’s not because your memory is poorer or your learning skills diminished (although that might also be true). It’s because the older you get the more self-conscious you are about the goofy fumbling for words and saying the wrong thing that are a necessary stage of language acquisition. You’re just not as comfortable with sounding like a 6 year old!”
This I disagree with. At my age, I really don’t care anymore about appearing silly, whether in what I say or what I wear. I first tried waterskiing in my mid 40s, and *that* is a laughable thing to see. But it really just didn’t bother me - I’ve crossed some line where it just doesn’t matter anymore; my kids were more embarrased than me. I think this peaked in my 20s, and mattered less and less after that. And particularly with a “truly foreign language” (as my professor of Japanese friend calls non-Indo-European languages), sounding like a 6-year-old is to be expected, and people aren’t hard on you for it.
On different motivations for learning Chinese (or any language): In my 20s I went back to University and took some evening linguistics courses. The introductory course had about 80% female students. It quickly became clear that the male students were mostly there because they were interested in linguistics, whereas the females were there because the course was a prereq for a TESL program they were enrolled in. Well, I don’t want to overgeneralize, but it may be the same thing that leads me to want to understand *why* Windows gives some particular error message, where my wife just wants to know what to do to get the problem dealt with. Or the same reason that, when walking down the street, I look into a hole some guys are digging to see what’s in there. And I’ll even ask them “where does that pipe go?” So perhaps more women want to learn Chinese for a purpose (and perhaps won’t if there is no clear purpose), where more men want to do it just to be able to say the’ve done it.
I think the main lesson is, well, not to generalize. Clearly some women are happy with ChinesePod as it is, or with minor tweaks. But those are the ones who are here already, so how to attract more? I doubt that fiddling with the colour scheme and web layout is going to do much. Find that necessary purpose, and you may get somewhere.
I just thought I’d mention this, not trying to be racist or sexist, I’ Australian and I live in China right now..
Me and a friend (girl) were discussing relationships, and her answer of why she wasn’t interested in Chinese boys seemed to be along the lines of they don’t seem to bath often. I also noticed the Chinese men seem to like to shake hands with westerners, and I didn’t really find that quite so pleasant as it seemed abit slimy. On another note, she did say Chinese men have quite a good reputation for being caring to girls and helpful.
If relations are a large reason for learning a language, this may be an answer.
Also reputation and marketing, how often do you see on TV or other media China being advertised as a bring and shining place?
France, the land of romance… etc
China.. The third world country with… (don’t get me wrong I love it here)
The spitting, and rubbish on the streets, these arn’t really things a girl will be quite fond of seeing often.
You often see Asian women being advertisedas “Beautiful Exotic Women”.. I’ve seen very little describing Chinese men in such a way.
It’s also possible men may have to learn it for their work, and women may be doing work at home (cooking, cleaning, looking after my brother and sisters).
Either way, I love studying Chinese here in China, and please nobody take any of my statements in a bad way, just trying to contribute.
Matty
(MW)
Matty says:
I just thought I’d mention this, not trying to be racist or sexist, I’ Australian and I live in China right now..
Me and a friend (girl) were discussing relationships, and her answer of why she wasn’t interested in Chinese boys seemed to be along the lines of they don’t seem to bath often.
Well, Matty, you must have been educated many years after me, or Australia has changed radically, because when I grew up in Darwin we were taught to write better English than what you have given us.
We were also taught that gentlemen don’t bring up unpleasant matters, like other people’s limp handshakes. Women from any country rarely know how to shake hands, in any event, so why should Chinese men be held to a higher standard.
Oh darn. Now I have let the cat out of the bag. Now women everywhere will know why they haven’t been able to crack the big time.
Hi Matty,
I’m pretty sure I can find a Chinese male counterpart to pretty much any western guy. Clean or not clean. A male that doesn’t bath, spits, and is loud and obnoxious is pretty darn available anywhere in the world. In the U.S. my buddies and I have perfected the head ‘nod and what’s up, yah — to avoid shaking hands. I don’t know how the French do the kiss-to-cheek thing. Maybe it is also to avoid shaking hands. And tell her that western women are loud, selfish and …ohh I don’t know, make up some silly stereotype to upset her.
So what was this blog thread about…I guess this will take us down a new drifting road!
Hi Matty, I might have sounded a bit harsh, I’m just poking fun. Glad you shared your thoughts with us! I hate the spitting too, but I’ve seen and HEARD plenty of Chinese women hurl a good one too! And I know western women who like to fart…so what’s one to do??!
For what it is worth, I know a lot of women who listen to ChinesePod and one fellow student even advocated for its use as part of the lesson preparation in class. However, none of them were paid subscribers.
I subscribed, because I wanted to have access to the transcripts. Other women I know are just interested in listening to the podcasts to supplement their lessons.
As far as a woman’s ability to learn Chinese. For the most part, the students in my classes who have done best are women. I think there are just differences in how and why a woman accesses information. There also may be differences in how a woman formulates her learning plan.
Jill says:
As far as a woman’s ability to learn Chinese. For the most part, the students in my classes who have done best are women. I think there are just differences in how and why a woman accesses information.
I would expect, that on average, women are as good at learning a foreign language as men are.
Any differences that might be seen in classes that we attend would probably be down to motivation and life stage. Young males have, generally, far better things to be doing than attending language classes.
If I look at my formal classes, I can make some observations:
1. Pretty much evenly mixed.
2. Most of the males are already married or in stable relationships, except for the two youngest, who are high school students, and both half-Chinese.
3. The females, on average, are better than the males, except for:
a. The Cantonese speakers who have inordinate difficulty with z sounds and always substitute j sounds. Of course, the Cantonese speakers have better grasp of the grammar and sometimes a better vocabulary.
b. Moi, but I have an advantage, since I have had more that 20 years of exposure to Cantonese in a home environment.
4. A large proportion of people in the class are mixed Chinese and Caucasian or are Chinese who went to an English speaking country when they were young and thus do not speak Mandarin or Cantonese well.
Indeed, as far as I can tell, the motivation for many of the people in the class is to get in touch with their cultural heritage.
There also may be differences in how a woman formulates her learning plan.
Que? What’s there to plan? You get as much input as you can. Burn the ChinesePod lessons to CDs and listen to them in the car. Read as much material as you can. Get children’s literature and read that. There is a great series out of Taiwan, called 國語 that is excellent for this. Spend as much time as you can on it. Saturate yourself with Mandarin. If you can, take trips to China.
Clever Dick says:
“Yes. There is a law in Beijing to this effect. My brother was not permitted to stay in the same condo apt. with his Chinese girlfriend. This was in the centre part of the city. For some reason, it was ok in the suburbs.”
Oh right, so you mean like live together or stay in a hotel together?
Bazza, Traditionally, in China, males and females could not cohabitate unless married. To live anywhere meant having to register, and that meant showing a marriage certificate if a male-female relationship was in question. I’m not sure what the current status is. I’ve heard some embarrassing stories, but I guess I can’t tell them here …
I’m curious about your research design - how did you gather your data?
Also, about women needing more “hand holding” - I doubt it. Probably women might choose a class to get actual real-time practice and correction. Lastly, most of the women I know don’t have a wife or girlfriend to make sure the essentials of living get done - so they’re too busy to spend extended time on the internet.
I think the reason women aren’t learning Chinese has nothing to do with ability or techical skillsets. We are just too busy working, taking care of the kids, cleaning the house, paying the bills, fulfilling social obligations etc. We are lucky to find 15 minutes to read the newspaper. Just my view of the world.
However, this blog made me sign-up for a membership to help improve the statistics!
Donna, so you are saying men are lazy and have nothing better to do?
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The china Chinese class I attend started out with 5 students, of which i was the only male. After several months we now have 7 full time students, 4 or which are male
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Why am I not surprised there are so many comments here. A 55/45 ratio would simply reflect the natural population (there are more girls than guys born). I to would expect the ratio to be 80/20 (80 white engeneer/computer programmer/geeks).
I say this because here in Australia, in every single Chinese area (authentic Chinese) you will NEVER see a white girl, it is ALWAYS a white guy and an Asian girl, usually a fairly dorky white guy. (I am very self conscious of this since I am a white Australian guy married to an Australian born taiwanese). In fact now that I am thinking about it, I dont think i have ever ever seen a white girl with an asian guy……..
I’m a woman learning chinese, and blog about my attempts. I’m not learning to get a man or woman, but because I’m living in Asia and it’s a wonderful opportunity and challenge for me.
Lastly, most of the women I know don’t have a wife or girlfriend to make sure the essentials of living get done - so they’re too busy to spend extended time on the internet.
Ahhh, yes. This gets trotted out all the time. All men, regardless of whether they are married or not, or how much work they do in the house, or whatever, have a wife to do all those tasks, well, that a wife does. And of course, no woman ever has anyone else to do those tasks, so she ends up doing them twice, once for herself, and once for the lazy man she is saddled with. In fact, it is even worse, because some poor women have to do these things for all the lazy brothers she has, as well as her father and all her unborn male children.
Man, life sure is tough if you are a women.
Yeah, I think that Donna used to broad a brush to make her argument, but the important thing is that she’s joined the group!
So welcome aboard, Donna! Oh, and can you get a soda out of the fridge for me?
ron
yaay bun fight ….
I spent almost a year as a house-husband, with three kids and still trained myself up into a career as a computer programmer, and worked nights (well half nights) stacking shelves to make ends meet etc. etc.
not to say that my wife doesn’t work hard either, she managed to finish a partime degree in half the time whilst working too, yup we are both wonderful :):)
The bets are off with sterotypes these days, most young women I know don’t know anything about housework either…….
BTW you can do housework listening to mp3s and do the ironing watching Chinese videos, I know it works because I do it (and I thought we weren’t supposed to be able to multi-task)
Lets pick on young people now, in my day we …..
I would humbly suggest that the stereotypical male slob/lout is not best suited to learning Chinese either.
All these different conclusions and responses to the original question are fascinating. I do agree with needing the time to study and learn Chinese. Some would just be too busy. This is one language you really cannot learn ‘on the fly’, or in a haphazard, non committal way. You MUST commit!
I take a Mandarin language class in NYC, and our female/male ratio is exactly the opposite; the females outnumber the males. For 8 women, we have 3 men. All are there learning it because of a Chinese spouse/mate or adopted Chinese children. One man does business in China, and one woman is learning it because it is required at her job, since they do heavy business in China.
I am the only one there learning Mandarin for myself, merely for the joy and challenge of it. No Chinese boyfrriend, girlfriend, spouse, child, business or boss. This is the most fun, challenging language I have ever taken on, and I love it. I will visit China later this year, so I guess I am also motivated by my upcoming trip.
I am the only Black person in my class, female. All the others are Caucasian. I will be going into my third module, “Mandarin 3″, in April, and plan to finish the entire series (of 12).
How could I possibly stop now? This is SOOOOOO addictive!
And Chinese pod has added yet another layer to my learning process. Not a pod person, but DEFINITELY a Chinesepod person. Yep, I am…
This learning tool is GREAT!
As a Swedish-American woman who has spent many years living and working in Asia, I have enjoyed reading this blog. Why do fewer Western woman study Chinese? I believe I could write a book on this subject. I have often wondered how my experience of China would be different if I were a man.
I began studying Chinese as a university student over 20 years ago. In the advanced classes, I was the only Caucasian woman and, as far as I know, the only student in my classes who went on to use the Chinese language professionally.
My motivations were purely intellectual. China and Chinese were two topics that seemed as foreign to me as anything I could imagine. Rather than select my major for my undergraduate degree based on what I was already good at, I majored in what I knew the least about: China Studies. If the purpose of an undergraduate education is to broaden one’s perspective, I decided China Studies would be a good choice. Graduate school, I reasoned, would be where I could specialize. Yet, if I had known then what I know now, I would have taken a very different path.
Much to my surprise, Chinese came easily to me. I never had to study hard to earn good grades. During the 1980s and 90s I worked in Taiwan and China, and I often traveled alone. I remember one time in 1989 when I traveled alone to China to complete preparations for an international art exhibition. Somewhere over the Pacific, on the flight between San Francisco and Beijing, I realized that I was the only Westerner who was not traveling in a delegation. I had no idea this would be so uncommon. I hadn’t thought about it.
I believe that most Western men who work in Asia have no idea how different it is to be a Western woman working in that part of the world. It might as well be a different planet. I quickly learned to carry myself and to communicate in a very formal manner. This was how I have distinguished myself from the negative and troublesome stereotype that “all Western women are promiscuous.” I often wore a wedding ring, even though I was not married at the time. It was clear that few men would take me seriously as a business person if they did not first respect me as a woman — and this respect was very hard to come by as a Western woman in Asia who was still young and single. (Western women in Asian were not treated like Asian women. We were a completely separate category.)
My Chinese associates would often comment that I was not like most American women. “You are so pure,” they would say. This was very helpful when working, but I got tired of feeling, so to speak, like I had to dress formally for almost every occasion. This is not to say that I did not form real friendships. I did, which are a wonderful part of my life. I have deep love for China. But the constraints that Chinese society places on a Western woman ultimately felt too confining for the life I wanted to enjoy. After 20 years, I left several “desirable” job opportunities in China to live in a small mountain town in the US. And, now I am happier than I have ever been.
Would it have been better to have spent all of those years mastering a skill that I can use here, where I want to live? I sometimes wonder. I was attracted to China for the adventure of learning about someplace very different from anything I had ever experienced before. It was an exciting adventure but, as a woman, my life is much larger here.