Recently I’ve been visiting some Chinese university websites. I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed, but they’re notoriously badly designed. I don’t know why. Take this for example. Then there’s this, and this.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that the institutions themselves are bad. The BLCU (above) is the place in China to study the language. Then you have Tsinghua University, a world-class school and perhaps the most prestigious university in China, though you’d never know it from looking at the home page. That derelict-looking building doesn’t do much for its prestige. Nor do the manufactured clouds. (For some reason manufactured clouds are big.) Meanwhile the light gray text (size 7 font?) on a white background is kind of difficult to read. And speaking of difficult to read, so is the logo (purple on the top of the page and white on the bottom). Then there’s the amoeba-sized photo in the center that doesn’t open. Clearly Tsinghua doesn’t put much store in any notions of we design.
Here’s another prestigious university profile demonstrating how you should not format text on a page, while Shantou University chooses a rather odd graphic to represent the school - a white washed tree-stump???
And those are all from the Top 100 ranked universities. In the lower ranked institutions things get even more interesting. Here’s Northwest University of Politics & Law. Huh? Then there’s Jiangxi University of Science and Technology. Moving on, then we get the floating gif lovers at the Zhe Jiang Forestry University. Next we have something… Er, actually, I’ve no idea what we have there.
One more. This is the migraine-inducing Heilong Jiang University of Chinese Medicine, where you may need to seek their acupuncture after viewing their website.
Now I’m not saying this to be nasty or offensive, but these are all landing pages or actual home pages. Surely, with all the talent and intellectual ability these places doubtlessly nurture, you’d think some of them would figure out the abc’s of web design.
Or is there another aesthetic at work?
Ken Carroll
Ken this is one of those posts where all I can say is “Oh My God Yes!” (wonders what the colloquial equivalent in Chinese is). It’s not just Universities either. Lets take a look at one of the most popular websites in china http://www.sina.com.cn Now it is just a portal site but Jimminy Cricket! Even mildly usable websites seem to be the exception and not the norm. CCTV is another great example of how not to design a site I’ve found pages that just entirely link back into them selves 40 or so links on a page all linking back to the page i’m on… Umm why? Whole sites designed on an overdose of xanax. The other things about the university sites is try finding one that up to date… No I don’t want the class schedule for 2002!
Sorry this is mainly because I signed up to a new Chinese class here in Kunming so i’ve been trying to get useful information out of those sites for the last month! That and I’ve always had a love of good design something that is rarely found in China… Highways with no emergency lanes anyone? You’ve got a flat tire? Well your just going to have to block a lane and too bad for you if it’s on the traffic side of the car you’ll just have to get hit by the army car that’s doing 150km/s an hour just because it can.
Oh I feel much better now.
Ken, How do Chinese universities make money from good web design?
Lantian,
You old cynic, you! How do they make money from good anything?
In fact, the big universities are not short of funds - some have very large resources - but this is not my point. To me, the question is, why do the designers refuse to learn the most fundamental elements of design? Design, as a soft skill, is often neglected aroun here.
Ken Carroll
The web design is still way better then their teaching methods.
Fox,
Aha. I thought we might get to this. Do you have first-hand experience of the teaching methods?
Ken Carroll
I would be careful with all too quick jugdements regarding the teaching quality of Chinese Universities.
From what I saw of Tsinghua (School of Economics and Management), they put heavy emphasis on high-quality and modern teaching methods. They are well aware they play in the first international league of educational and research institutions and benchmark themselves based on that standard.
And I learned other Chinese Universities are striving with full steam in the same direction (at least in the IT/IS/Business sector).
By no means your classic Chinese middle-school-gong-fu-memorize-until-your-brain-bleeds approach.
What’s coming out from their speaks for itself and doesn’t need further comments. Engineering is another “soft” spot, still, they teach enough to have moderate copy abilities.
In my wildest dreams wouldn’t I consider learning Mandarin in any U in China.
So, let’s not complain of those state-of-art websites…
I don’t have a very broad experience of the Universities in China but those in Kunming are still quite “middle-school-gong-fu-memorize-until-your-brain-bleeds” This is in comparison to Australian Universities though. Yes they have resources and some world class equipment but they seem to be very elitist you need to be in the”A Team” to really get the same level of attention as a normal student in Australia (I’ve heard that you can pay your way into these class’ ). The normal class size seems to be between 80 and 100 and only have lectures (not too much in the way of tutorial hands on). I’m sure the big universities are leading the charge in changing this and like most things in china it is changing.
Your third link goes to a site which has link called “EngLish”. Truly that’s what it says. It’s written near the top, the same font size as the name of the university itself (if you can read blue on a blue and white stripe).
Follow the link and you’ll see a half reasonable English page, except the text is white on white with some faint shadows to make guesswork easier.
A lot of these sites also look like they were developed many years ago, and whether or not the content has been updated the style has not. The annoying thing I do see a lot on Chinese sites is cramming the whole hard disk onto the front page, so it looks like a bulk printed sheet of assorted xmas postage stamps. You can’t find anything, and it takes forever to load.
Before criticizing other web pages, a critical review of the CP web pages could also lead to some improvements…
Fred,
You’re right. We have done exactly that - a critical overview. You’ll be seeing changes in the near future.
Ken Carroll
That style of over crowded page, might just be what Chinese are used to. Ever had a look at a Chinese almanac?
The quality of the graduates from Chinese universities is pathetic. McKinsey did a large study in 2005 that surveyed large multinationals operating in China, and they found that fewer than 10% of the graduates had the skills and capabilities needed to get jobs in multinational corporations. It’s a huge problem for mnc’s in China - it’s hurting their ability to expand their operations and make a profit. There’s also a huge problem with these graduates not being able to communicate effectively in english. Another huge study, done by KPMG and The Economist Intelligence Unit, surveyed over 200 large multinationals in China, and when they were asked to list their biggest concerns, the ability to communicate in english was a bigger concern than corruption, IP property protection, national economic policy, cross border capital flow restrictions, and lack of transportation and logistical infrastructure.
I live in Shanghai and know first hand how hard it is to find skilled and talented employees who can perform at international business standards. Very, very frustrating sometimes.
In all fairness, on those pages listed I have NOT seen/heard:
Mouse trailers
Background Music
Snow flakes moving down
Dazzling flash animations
John
What’s wrong with the CPod site? I think it’s OK, it’s not overloaded. But it still misses a “how to guide” which shows how ALL functions are integrate.
I’ve just finished reading the article and all the comments. Of course, I clicked all the links. Very interesting and funny. I could not resist a smile. Portal sites in China are really “crowded.” I sometimes see them with a magnifying glass.
Changye,
Agreed. Charles’ link to Sina is a good example. I’d be interested to hear people’s views on this. According to almost any authority on the subject in the west, you absolutely should never present a home page like this (hundreds of links on it, for example) and yet we see here one of China’s leading portals doing it. Why? I guess it must be that Chinese people assume there is nothing going on if they don’t see lots of activity on the home page. (This is not unlike the crowded restaurant versus the empty one. Chinese people will inevitably stand in a long line to get into the crowed one rather than risk the empty one without having to stand in line.)
Ken Carroll
You got it, Ken. It’s all about mentality.
Hi Ken,
I’m just saying the websites are put together by the local IT majors who are NOT design students, and the universities could care less that their site is cluttered. ALL of the websites Ken linked to are obvious template content-management applications where someone has just plugged in some poor images and the necessary text submitted by various committes and departments. Prospective students aren’t assessing and paying university fees based on their evaluation of the campus website. And the IT kids responsible on the site would much rather spend their time playing Warcraft.
Good design costs MONEY. To go to a design school in the U.S. or Europe costs A LOT of money. Where do typical Chinese kids get the cash to learn good design?
(btw, I’m gonna start my rant now, so be prepared to scroolllll)
How many universities in China are able to afford the computer labs and legit copies of design software? Libraries are sparse in terms of international design magazines because of their costs. A typical Chinese person does not get MTV, buy Apple computers and grow up with fashion magazines and Madison Avenue ad campaigns. There is no critical mass.
Students do not have access to proper high-end camera equipment, production board, x-acto knives, photo-tape, proper paints and ventilated spaces to produce pieces. All of the items I just mentioned are part and parcel of typical U.S. design schools.
These schools are also supported by corporations and foundations which funnel resources, internships and professionals into the schools. There is also a huge market for these sorts of professionals. All of this is just developing in China, and the institutions most likely to be at the end of the pack in this area are UNIVERSITIES!
Okay, that’s the practical side. Now at an aesthetic level I think the Chinese find a heck of a lot of enjoyment and satisfaction in a very busy, hot, sociable and hanzi-filled environment. Take a look at the front and interior of any mainland Chinese establishment and you will find LOTs of hanzi, a blaring speaker out front, and little decorations filling up every nook and cranny. In China space abhors the vacuum.
I am also constantly amazed at what people actually are able to cobble together with the thinnest and simplist of materials. Many of the large advertisement banners are not printed out on computers but simple cut out or stenciled with regular newspaper.
And to sum up, cause I am just blabbing away now, I realized all this in a ‘ah hah’ moment. I was in Hong Kong (which has a very non-mainland asthetic) and commenting that I thought the gals in Central were dressed very nicely–you know simple subdued colors, clean lines, well-tailored. My mainland friend said, yah, they dress so boring.
Hi Ma Ding,
You’re just quoting studies by big consulting companies wanting to maintain their grand-theft fees and fly-by ideas. There’s plenty of local talent in China. IMO
Hi Ken,
I can’t stop! You’ve caught me at a very weak moment. I am of two minds about this ‘Chinese aesthetic. Personally I am more inclined to gravitate to very stark and open spaces. If one looks at classic Japanese temples you often see a simple juxtoposition of black and white. The focus on creating a focus in ikebana and an uncluttered environment is incubated from a very early age.
In contrast to this, take a look at a Chinese temple. There the look is much more intricate, some would say warmer, and mixed with a variety of materials and colors. This appears in typical Chinese fashion also. The aspired look is one of bright and effusive color and exquisite details. If one compares the costume design in recent movies such as the curse of The Curse of the Golden Flower
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/...../970415946
you will see that the elite of the Chinese design scene can apply well the traditionalist artisan weaves, colors and imagery at a design level that the typical Chinese designer is no match for, certainly not a Warcraft playing computer science major designing the college website.
What I think is a fairer comparison of design asthetics would be to take a look at the gaudy and belabored attempts at a similar exotic by the wardrobe and costume talent for Star Wars
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/.....oto/429409
In other words, the Chinese would from a very early age be exposed to imagery that tends to be much more colorful, loud, and scattered than most westerners. Add to this the inadequate resources to teach design, and the lack of push from consumers not used to this sort of imagery and what you have is the Chinese visual world.
But is this traditional Chinese imagery the future of China? I think most likely not. As there is more exposure to better media, yes this means that Chinese tv needs to be subjected to proper competition, has anyone noticed that even there there is no proper transition between shows? What kind of scheduling and production quality starts shows at 5:56 pm? As I was saying, as there is more exposure to media, there will also be a change in aesthetic.
A simple example is the popularity of KFC and McDonalds in China. IMO it is not simply the food or a desire to be western-like that brings many people to those spaces. The design elements there are as noticeable as they are absent in the websites Ken has mentioned. In those spaces the designers have kept to a simple three-color palette with ample free space inbetween repitition and matching with materials in wood, cloth and steel. The windows there are not plastered with the menu in hanzi. This design creates a feeling of space, cleanliness and modernity that is often poorly copied in copy-cat local fastfood establishments.
The design there contributes to the popularity, although it is for the most part unnoticed on a conscious level by a typical consumer or boss of a Chinese business. Obviously this design-quality has been purposely choosen by the management of these chains, management that has put the two and two together, that certain elements of design can project a certain image, with certain atmospheres good for business.
Now do you think that a typical university committee of tenured professors will have this in mind when they get back the proto-type of the university website by the IT department? Nah — I don’t think so.
Hasn’t anyone else also noticed that it is almost impossible to teach a Chinese person to capitalize at the beginning of a sentence and with proper nouns. I consider this a visual-affront. I know the concept is not nuclear science. But I guess it would be like trying to get me to wear red undies. It ain’t gonna happen anytime soon!
Cpod’s Frosh Year - Oh! One last thing…does this remind you of those ol’uni days? :p
http://web.archive.org/web/200.....sepod.com/
To confirm Ken on this one, my tutor’s take on the difference between Western and Chinese web design lies in the Chinese customer wanting to see abundance. A Chinese person goes to sina.com and sees the clusterfuck of links and thinks, “Wow! This place really is worth my time because it has so much to offer.” To a Westerner, it says “What is this, get me back to Google. Quickly.” Ken’s restaurant allusion makes the same point.
Another interesting side point then is how to account for the popularity of baidu.com? It adopted (read: stole) the Google simplistic front page and spurns this “web design with Chinese characteristics” idea. Maybe because they offer free mp3 downloads thereby bringing in the Chinese youth and simultaneously mocking IP laws?? Thoughts??
Just goes to show that while a country can pump out the grads they may not have what it takes to compete on a national scale.
Some elements of design may be learned attributes that are taught at a school but other elements simply come from the ability to think outside that box that traditional education seems to puts you in. I know a lot of great designers who never went to design school.
I think that is part of what makes the U.S. so great, many of the brightest minds are interested in doing great things first while school and career are just things that have to be dealt with to possibly get there.
Has everybody forgotten, that you don’t don’t have to go back too far in time to look at all the crazy websites in the Western world?
And there are plenty around.
Ohhh what short memories we have! If you want a reminder go back and play with the wayback machine at archive.org.
chris
You don’t need to go back very far at all to find a western site that is just as crouded as any Chinese site. Try this one,
http://www.yahoo.com/
or this one,
http://www.msn.com/
I find very few Chinese sites that don’t have everything packed onto the front page with avertisements and flashies and everything. I’d put it down to a different aesthetic rather than poor design in many cases (although some are particularly tragic, no matter what).
We like a sparsish website with obvious links, whereas I think the CHinese idea is to have everyhting available on the front page…
I was going to throw in yahoo when I mentioned sina but hers the crunch using a firefox extension you can quickly find that yahoo has 159 links in all sina has…. Are you ready… 1107… that’s nearly 7 times the amount of links!
To lantian Being a computer major is no excuse for a badly designed website. Back home nearly all computing students will do some design based class’ If your doing web services they are core subjects. And how is legal software is needed? In a lecture by Adobe at my university we were told to download it… “we don’t make money from you guys we make money from the people who employ you guys! Save your money for inspirational beers” Defiantly one of the most interesting company run lectures I’ve ever been to and one I remember every time I here talks about the economics of piracy. As to equipment that you need to learn good design? try a spraycan. I met a group of extremely talented designers at an exhibition… they learnt their skills on the streets of São Paulo with a backpack full of stolen rattle cans.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bastien/sets/168137/
Back to the topic of the University’s themselves… What subjects would you expect a first year computing student to study? Would the fact that classical Chinese is a compulsory subject surprise you? I know it certainly supprised me. Their entire first semester was no better than an extension of high school and the next one was much of the same.
The Chinese at least have years of web conventions to draw on that were not around during the early days for sites like Yahoo. However, Craigslist is not much different from old Yahoo. Still, Cragslist is much better than those Chinese sites.
Ya’know - So who says it’s not good design?
One key principle of web design is to limit the number of layers a person needs to click thru to get to their info. The Chinese sites are all ONE click! (plus a couple pop up animations)
And Charles, have you ever tried to buy a spraycan in a Chinese city that is not Shanghai or Beijing? It’s sure not at my local hobby store.
And about the legit software, I brought it up not as a business/piracy issue because I think actually there is no opportunity-cost lost when the market can’t afford the prices anyway; what I meant was that with legitimate copies it is an indication that there is proper support, there is an education program for the software, supplemental books, and a whole environment around that software, this creates a more discerning eye and skills around certain key design principles.
Locally, the best Photoshop users here in China are at the local camera development shops. I’ve never seen persons so adept with keyboard commands and curves as those folks screaming thru 100 digital shots.
I’m not saying that the Chinese have no natural dexterity or intuition, in fact there is tremendous talent, but there is no environmental mechanism to raise the level. I think we forget that China is very undeveloped outside of the marquee cities.
It’s kinda like team sports, the Chinese are great at finding special individuals, but there are fewer mechanisms like Little League, College basketball or professional leagues with huge marketing budgets to nurture national-level skills.
Ken’s looking at global-levels because he surfs the best of the world on the internet, not the local stuff. Take a look at a local U.S. campus website:
http://www.csupomona.edu/
http://www.qdu.edu.cn/english/index.htm
Looks the same to me.
I suspect a lot of this is the influence of advertising middlemen like Google on the western advertising market. The US online advertising market has a lot of money coming from small advertisers working through middlemen like Google. Text ads make sense in this market because they are easy to manage.
In contrast, Chinese companies like Sina and Bokee sell space on their pages directly to large companies rather than individuals. And their sales teams are more concerned with networking and kickbacks than how user-hostile any particular advertisement is to visitors.
That being said, the adverts I saw on the Washington Post article on podcasting Ken linked to yesterday were about as bad as any of the stuff I’ve seen on Xinhua or Bokee. Two dancing sillouhettes and a side-panel with exploding colorful confetti? Movement catches the eye….
I asked my Chinese friend, who is an engineering graduate of one of those prestigious unviversities (Telecommunications & Posts), about the web design issue.
She said that the university doesn’t depend on the website to attract new students. They have virtaully millions of students knocking on the door, competing for a cherished spot in unversity. And so, it probably makes sense to have a “crappy-looking” website to discourage people.
Paul,
The top level universities in China certainly do have way more applicants than places each year. Of that there is no doubt. But the same is true of top universities in every country, yet these institutions most certainly do work hard to preserve their aura of ‘prestige’. In my experience (the UK) Oxford, Cambridge, and the other top ones are actually locked in a very competitive battle, not just for students, but for the BEST students. This is what makes life better/sweeter for them, not just student numbers, per se.
Ken Carroll
Hey Ken, all the best Chinese students go to the U.S. to study! ;p
MIT
(they’re studying manga!)
http://web.mit.edu/
Art Center College of Design
(if you want to see tommorrow’s cars and products, look here)
http://www.artcenter.edu/accd/......jsp?p=TRN
My son is studying Maths and Physics at Bath University in the UK - why is recognised as very close to (as good as?) Oxford and Cambridge academically in these subjects. He tells me that about 30% of the Maths and Economics students are Chinese. (He also says they all sit at the front of the lecture theatres together and don’t mix)
Mike
We are getting a little off topic here. But I met a girl in HSBC Bank Shenzhen. She told me she studied 3 years in the UK, and her English was just TERRIBLE. I presume she must have tried very, very hard not to meet any locals, just like mom told her….
To be fair, I met another one, which did mingle a lot with folks from everywhere, naturally her English was excellent.
But lack of social skills is a big issue in China.
I think most Chinese students would be happy to mix in the UK, but it’s difficult for them. I never met a Chinese student who didn’t want to improve his/her English!
It must be strange for them, however, to land into the world of the British 19 year old. By UK standards the Chinese kids are naieve, shy, over-protected, etc. I imagine, though, that the Chinese girls/women find it easier to mix over there than the guys do.
Ken Carroll
DELICIOUS DESIGN - Here’s a Chinese site which I think captures some of the elements of Chinese tastes in design. It’s done by local designers, interestingly it comes from Yum Foods which runs the KFC brand.
I think a major difference between it and universities is that as a brand, it has a vested interest in establishing local presence throughout China, AND insuring consistency of the brand. Their ad campaigns and integration with the website fuel it’s brand building. This is something universities don’t need to do, nor have the willingness to invest money into.
www.kfc.com.cn
Be warned, music blaring from the site will wake you up.
It has:
Bold colors
A consistent color palatte
Considered typography and use of hanzi
Music, flash, animation!
Ability for viewer customization
A strongly branded logo
It uses a Content Mgmt System (CMS) backend, not a blog application
this is certainly true. the beijing film academy english site has actually gone right down now, but when it was up it was *horredndous*. unclear links everywhere, text all squidging up and over each other, dark background making it all difficult to read, arbritrary page separation, no pictures 80 argh it had it all! interesting observation that it seems to be a trend, though.