Many of you have heard about Linese.com, a website created by the Chinese to help foreigners understand Chinese culture and learn Chinese. One of the best features of the site is its extensive collection of CCTV videos, all available for download (MP3, MP4, and WMV formats). The main archive of video material is divided into HappyJourney, a show dedicated to introducing interesting tourist spots around China, and HappyChina, a show which teaches Chinese through cultural lessons. The shows are hosted by 韩佳 (Hán Jiā), a Chinese girl, and 大牛 (Dà Niú), a British guy named Daniel who speaks amazing Chinese. Some of the newer shows have American 王渊源 (Wáng Yuānyuán) hosting instead of Daniel.
One of the drawbacks of Linese’s CCTV offerings is that every single one is at the intermediate level (although there is also “Chengo” for kids). Furthermore, it seems that Linese’s “Intermediate” level corresponds roughly to ChinesePod’s “Upper Intermediate” level. Still, these videos are professionally produced and clearly offer some valuable educational content. We would like to know what ChinesePod users think of this video material.
Some of my observations after watching a few videos:
- the videos are quite long, and the content is rather difficult
- the dialogue (which is not explained) is often more difficult than the points which are explicitly explained
- the “burned on” subtitles, to some degree, “fix” the way that the videos can be used as a study tool
- topics definitely seem chosen by a Chinese person
Please let us know what you think.
I have watched them sometimes and they are pretty ?unstimulating? and i have usually just changed channels. I think if you were to put video footage on chinesepod i would not really watch it as i feel you get just as much out of having the audio (with the script) for it. If not more, as i can stick it on my ipod. Not to mention the download/file sizes.
Have video podcasts been invented yet anyway?
Ps good point about the chinese topics. I’m growing so tired of some of the topics in the books. It must be learnt though! I’m sure we’re all culturists here but the westerners are never going to want to stop learning how to say “你知道吗，你是个很糟糕的司机。你总是开得太快，而且很粗心”
“you can take the car out of the city, but not the city out of the car” as the advert goes
It’s important to consider what you might get out of a video presentation that you don’t get from a simply audio presentation.
- You can get subtitles, which as said, are stuck on, whereas optional might be more helpful.
- Visual context clues for the clueless
- pronunciation aids (a close up can show the mouth position well)
- attention focus for those of us (like me) with short attention spans
If you’re going to the trouble of making videos, make the visuals count, otherwise it’s not worth the bandwidth.
A very good one I saw for beginners was on the Australian SBS free-to-air channel. It was called Shuoshuo Xiaoxiao or Xuexue xiaoxiao (说说笑笑 or 学学笑笑) or something like that. It was aimed at primary schools learning Chinese. The content was simple, repetitive and comprehensive. The repetition was a little overdone, but it was otherwise very good. They had native speakers and adult learners and short sections with children practising as well.
I think John’s assessment is pretty on the mark. The problem here is that these videos are not prepared by teachers, still less by teachers who understand the needs of western learners.
So it is with most TV shows on this topic: they produce the content without market research, a target audience, or clear objectives. Everything is done from the perspective of the producer and what he thinks might appeal to people, and all on the basis of a limited budget. I’ve lived in China for several years, but there is no way I could guess what a Chinese TV audience might need in English training if I had never taught them.
Having said this, however, I would like to get my hands on those videos and re-mix ‘em. I think we could do something really interesting if the allowed us to do that.
I guess the broader question here concerns the role of video on ChinesePod. I’ve given it quite a bit of thought and concluded that, from the learner’s perspective, there’s no really compelling need for it right now. What do you guys think?
Ken Carroll
As much as a like podcasts, video is so much more compelling. Maybe it’s not worth the amount of extra work involved, but … well, there’s a reason TV displaced radio as quickly as it did.
One bonus on the video — for those of us who live in China, it downloads *really* fast!
John B,
I think that TV couldn’t compete with radio in the entertainment context, particularly in the past when there were very few options. However, I think we’re in a different world now.
Audio on-demand offers far more flexibility for the user than video does - mobility, for example. My view is that liberating people from the computer is the way we should go. We’re trying to ensure that the content can be accessed on your cell phone, PDA, etc, which kind of meshes the mobility with a greater visual dimension. Apparently, less than 2% of all the podcasts consumed thus far are, in fact, video. I do expect, perhaps, a reckless competitor to go crazy with video, so it will almost certainly happen at some point.
Ken Carroll
well, I’ve been known do reading books while driving, but you aren’t supposed to do that sort of thing. Same with videos, even though my Archos can handle them alright. Some bandwidth issues are inherent limitations of the human brain, not just technology.
Yv
Ken
goulnik mentions bandwidth limitations. In my case it is staying focused. Video maybe fun but I would get distracted from the learning. I find my best way to absorb chinesepod dialogues is with my eyes shut but brain on. Seems video wouldn’t work well with this study method.
Mike in Jubei
At the beginner level all content has to be repetitive to some extend, and I think that there is nothing more boring than watching a video where some guy (e.g. 大山) repeats the same phrase(s) over and over again. It is OK for audio though, because it lets you focus on the pronunciation.
People at intermediate and advanced level rather watch Chinese movies and TV shows, so in my opinion there is not much benefit in producing new or remixing existing Chinese language videos.
I’d rather see ChinesePod add some more interactive audio features. Maybe something based on Skype or other VoIP technologies.
I happen to like videos and audio they just serve a different purpose.
The single question most important question for me is “does the video provide extra contextual ques that would not be present in the audio alone?”.
In theory I should be able to push hard and understand a slightly higher level of Chinese if I am receiving contextual clues through my eyes as well as my ears. I find this difference between Chinese radio and TV and between talking over Skype and face to face (body language is a great feed for extra context).
Maybe I haven’t sampled enough of these yet but I think they could have been better if they didn’t have such a huge “marketing China and all things Chinese to foreigners” agenda which may at times get in the way.
I have seen the term language “language rapist” used to decribe people who make friends just to leech language (and I am guilty myself as charged now). However I would coin the phrase “language prostitute” for the feeling I get sometimes when watching such heavily promotional material. Nevertheless I am a person of loose morals and will occaisonally watch one of these because they are not all bad. I also like it when I can listen to foreigners who seem to mastered a good standard of Chinese.
I am in awe of China for many reasons, but the abililty to develop a machine that can both wash clothes and sweet potatoes it not one of them
Ohh BTW I should mention I have only looked at the Happy Journey so far.
Happy happy joy joy …… yihou I go …
I like some of the videos. I remember seeing some on TV when I was bedridden in Beijing for a week and watched Chinese soap operas and these videos all day long.
I have a problem with westerners who speak Chinese, they kind of creep me out… I dont know why. Just how they sound freaks me out and I dont like being around them. So the white hosts make me uncomfortable but the Chinese, 韩佳 is pretty cool.
I have alternative views on two points.
1. Videos for learning versus for entertainment
Ages ago, I purchased the Chinese language version of this
http://www.boultons.com.au/fasttrack.htm
and proceeded to misuse it, heavily.
The idea is you click on a picture and a face pops up saying its word over and over and over…
I don’t recommend it as a way to learn the language as it is - it’s meant as a cheapie for tourists who aren’t very interested - but I’ve found the little (2-3 second) videos helpful time and time again, as an indispensable reference collection to help distinguish between heard sounds. I don’t run the program (it’s Microsoft-only) but I carry all the little video files of single words on my PDA. The only problems are that I had to pull out and index the videos first, and that there’s a very limited range of words.
ChinesePod could do something like these down the track, for example, a few of them would be a great addition to the pinyin chart for consonants, once that feature has settled in. Also, downloadable mini-videos of mouths saying one or two words could be linked to each beginner lesson, covering the most unfathomable words/sounds/glides of that lesson, e.g. shi or zhongguoren or nimangma.
2. Videos are portable
All videos are easy to carry around and watch at the beach, in the pub, etc, except those which enforce streaming. I don’t watch videos on my computer, always on a portable device. YouTube and ChinesePod (recently) don’t allow this, but most places on the net do put them in a usable format.
I played the earlier (mp4) VideoHotPod episodes, which were downloadable, on the bus, train, at work, at the park, in shopping centres, and there was always some fascinated passer-by wanting to take a peek and hear about ChinesePod. Many laughs and insights were shared with people who would not have otherwise encountered the language or the idea of learning it.
Before I had a mobile device (Palm PDA), I carried this stuff around on a small USB stick which I gleefully shoved into any computer I passed during the day.
3. Furthermore…
I’ve also found the Oxford Uni online lessons tremendously helpful because of the WAY that they use the video format. There is a very very short, downloadable, video dialogue. So short and well done that it doesn’t matter that it’s acted. That helps avoid those phrases becoming decontextualised drills in my mind, they attach to meaning and environment. But the best thing they do is attach a mini-video of a mouth speaking a phrase, as an icon beside that written phrase. Again, these are downloadable, in a common format, and use minuscule bandwidth. It’s THE best way to work on the phrases alone. Note that each lesson is complete and excellent without needing any of the videos, but then the little videos give the brain some super-absorbent moments. The images, no, the experience, then attaches itself to future glimpses of the written and auditory material.
Note that this kind of video material is only helpful for the student, not at all used to help the teacher prepare the lesson, which stands alone, complete, without video. It’s not a video lesson per se. Does the video add material or help the teacher in the lesson preparation? That question is the key to testing whether its design is on track, in my view.
Yeah, that mini stuff hasn’t got the glamour of chatty conversations around a tourist site, but it’s well targeted to student needs and made broadly accessible. It doesn’t try to teach via video, just adds a supplementary resource that a student can grab onto when puzzling it out alone. And during those down troughs between the ups, everyone you see (i.e. only the mini-videos if studying alone) is happy and makes it look easy to do. It gives the learner hope, a picture of what I will look/sound/feel like, a role model for saying shi effortlessly, a glimpse of the end product, one word or syllable at a time, and digestible from day one.
More typical videos elsewhere on the net might be entertaining, enlightening, attractive to Chinese sponsors, but they don’t offer this level of bang for MB to students. The simpler glamour videos can reward intermediate learners while ostracising beginners.
A cynic could summarise the current use of media like this:
Those who can prepare a good audio lesson, do it.
Those who can’t, make a video lesson.
Those who can’t do either, film a pretty girl speaking Mandarin slowly.
Those who haven’t got a pretty girl, grab something off TV.
I think there is an exponentially positive effect in someone’s ability to recall, the more he uses his human senses.
This dictum in learning says that when you add up the sense of sight (add to your sense of hearing like in podcasts), your learning batting average increases too (though ultimately, it’ll depend on lots of factors really).
That said, videos will retain more facts and linger more at our brain’s center of recall. These videos are in my iPod. Hopefully, Cpod will revive (and revise) its video hotpots.
Videos = good. 500 million mobile phones around the world are mp4 compatible.
Charles - the vast majority of students at ChinesePod are western. Ken is western too. Do we also make you feel uncomfortable ? I’m “white”, (actually, more pink than white) and speak a little chinese. Is that creepy ?
Maybe I misunderstood your post, but if that’s the way you feel, then maybe Chinese Pod is not for you. Myself, I gain encouragement and hope from seeing foreigners speaking great chinese.
In reply to brokensword…It has also been should that adding additional media to educational content can result is LESS rather than more retention. It should not be assumed that video will, by itself, make it easier to learn or “retain” what is studied. In fact the reverse could be true. Video could make learning Chinese more difficult.
To Michael Butler’s point (though not necessarily what he meant), many people watch movies as to improve their language skills (Chinese or otherwise). But I find that you get carried away with the story, as you should, at the expense of language acquisition. In the end, I tend to remember the plot, the visuals and possibly a few lines but I can’t concentrate on the language per se.
Yv
My post should have read:
It has also been shown…..
And yes goulnik this is an example of what I meant. Media can distract as much as it can add.
Video as a means of instruction isn’t a sure thing. It all depends on how you use it. I agree with Michael that in can actually be counter-productive in some cases. I’ve learned very little linguistically from watching TV, for example. I certainly would not recommend it as a learning strategy. Developing videos that were pedagogocally sound and designed for learning, however, would be another matter. As I mentioned ealrler, though, i just don’tsee a very compelling reason to do that right now.
Ken Carroll
Hey guys, I miss video. I think the video of simply walking and describing stuff on the street was awesome. Bandwith will not be a problem for a long time and there is always the very generous youtube. I miss another thing, use camtasia or anyother program to capture screen and make a tutorial on how to use de website, it is always changing and I think the users could find that usefull.
About video x podcast, well, they are really diferent, but seeing someone saying something can give you a lot more on the feeling mood, and all the acting and body language makes a difference and can help. I know that we have become podcasters, rsss, blog,video-makers, and even “teachers”. I also try to teach and learn online. So, I am pro video, I wish we could have some better videos and more often.
ps, I also liked the zoo video!!!
Keep up with the great, I will say again, GREAT JOB.
I am intrigued that people seem to feel that they don’t learn anything from TV or movies???
Maybe it is the approach? I watch on my computer, the video taking about half the screen and the rest of screen used for dictionary lookups etc. Many times I hear a combination of familiar words in a new order then I tend to write them into a text file. Or if I get a clear listen of a syablle or two that seems to be the key to understanding a sentance I quickly look up the pinyin.
I agree that if you are going to kick back on the sofa with a beer you are not going to learn anything, but then I find the best thing to do is watch English media with Chinese subtitles, I still have a long long way to go with reading but thanks to doing that I can parse subtitles that contain characters I know in real time whether the spoken audio is Chinese or English (mind you that took 14 episodes of Firefly, 12 episodes of X files, 8 episodes of Star Trek voyager, 4 epsiodes of Lexx, 8 epsisodes of Dr Who but whos counting) None of that actually seemed like work.
Podcasts and other audio are great for dead time when doing other jobs but if concentrating on Video etc you need to be inventive and turn your computer into a language lab.
Imagine,
Video running in half the screen, Wenlin or other dictionary running alongside, webrowser in the background, Dimsum in background with a Chinese IME running. Add a cheap graphics tablet (so that you can literally ‘draw’ a Chinese character on for lookup in Wenlin or Dimsum). Run audacity in the background (now you can snatch a sentance from the video in seconds, replay it a slower speed or clean it up). Add text to speech to your browser (get something wierd that looks like an idom then google it, get the browser to speak and some sentances that contain it on the web.
Too tired or don’t have time then kick back, open a beer find something that you and your partner can watch (but with Chinese subtitles) your brain can’t help itself it wants to lazily noodle around trying to decipher the characters a bit….. and bit more …. then have some fun finishing sentances out loud before the character says them (becasue the sentance is back to front in Chinese;)) …… then get a slap from my wife for finishing sentances out loud
….. etc etc
Sorry I am gabbling, but there is just so much out there …… if you don’t actually think about what you are doing then of course you will learn nothing from any medium.
Hi,
I have to agree with Chris here. Before i started seriously watching real chinese media, when hearing native speed chinese, the syllables would all blur together. But, after many hours of watching (its taken about a month) i can now generally follow all the syllables, hear them clearly, even if i don’t understand them…my mind is processing everything faster, and although i don’t go to the same lengths as Chris above, i do pick up new vocabularly because i can remember the new words amongst the parts that i recognise, and then look them up later. If i don’t remember something clearly in my mind, i usually don’t try to look for the word. And, again, this is reminiscent of how a child picks up its mother tongue. The last thing a child picks up is the meaning of the words…it gets this through exposure and experience. The more i watch ‘interesting and enjoyable’ media, the more i get exposed to the way certain words are used in certain situations…the more i build up a ‘feel’ for the language and for those words…so that in the end…if i look them up…i’ve almost arrived at the precise meaning.
大家加油！
Hi,
I’m John, the “王渊源“ who hosts the “Happy Journey” shows. I agree with all of the observations in the initial post, and am grateful for the feedback provided in the comments as well.
In fact, when I first started doing the show in July I was very confused by the “educational” content, as it seemed too difficult–and not very helpful–for anyone who learned Chinese as I did, from scratch as a second language.
I came to realize, however, that the show is not necessarily geared towards learners like me. It’s broadcast on CCTV-4, which is the Chinese Language International Channel, and the primary audience is overseas Chinese. My understanding is that the language learning programs on CCTV-4 are in many ways geared primarily to the children of overseas Chinese, many of whom grow up speaking Chinese but might have holes in their vocabulary.
That said, the show certainly has a lot of room for improvement, and the entire staff of the show is always glad to get feedback from viewers.* I’ll send them the URL to this thread, and please also feel free to send feedback to happychina@vip.163.com. In addition to being available on Linese.com, the show is broadcast M-F on CCTV-4 at 05:45, 15:45, and 00:20 Beijing time.
Best,
John
p.s. Sorry for creeping you out, Charles.
*By the way, the show’s staff works very hard. Another challenge of doing a video show like this is that there is a huge amount of work involved, from scouting the locations to writing the scripts to filming the show to editing, etc.
On a side note, what a cool community here! I think it’s great that there can be such an intelligent discussion on the value of video in language-learning.
My opinion is that it depends on the learner. I personally do better with audio supplemented by entertaining video (movies, TV series) to break up the monotony, but I know a lot of people who learn much more effectively from video, perhaps because it engages them more fully. My wife learned Cantonese primarily from watching a few TV series (mostly 武侠）, and I’ve met people who learned English almost exclusively from movies–no vocab lists.
Is there something about the i-pod media that makes “reviewing lessons” easier or more desirable?
A number of posters have argued that adding video to c-pod will make c-pod better. I would argue that this is true. I would also argue that this is false. Simply put, learning styles differ and it is quite conceivable that two people will react to the same media quite differently. Two people may have widely different reactions to the same media. It is impossible to argue (at this point) that one form of media is universally better than another. In other words, while some will be helped by learning through one dominant media type (reading, listening, watching) it is probable that another group constrained to that media type will be somewhat hurt.
One alternative is to offer a combination of all three media types but there are a number of constraints involved in doing so. Also it has been shown that in particular instances combined media are inferior to single media. On the other hand, as students we should be happy because we have entered into an age where the above three media types are becoming more widely available (alone and together) for language learners. What is more, for those of you that can wait, there is another media on the horizon- that of truly interactive, immersive, computer-based environments.
If I were Ken I would be asking myself if one company should try to become an expert in one, two, three or all four media types? How much overlap can there be? What are the advantages to sticking with one dominate media style versus combining media types?
It will be fun to watch as Ken makes these choices and my bet is that he will do so for the benefit of us all. Having said that I must also comment on one aspect of the I-pod style of acquiring language that I find quite interesting. In most language classes the teacher moves on to new material so quickly that students often find themselves trailing behind the teacher and the “class”. It is almost axiomatic in English teaching for example that classroom teachers are asked to quicken the pace and keep a class moving along. This pacing however is often at odds with an individual student’s desire to fully master one or more aspects of the material.
What I have seen so far after reading comments by c-podders is that some spend hours, or weeks covering and recovering a particular lesson. My question is this…..
Is there something about the i-pod media that makes “reviewing lessons” easier or more desirable? Does the I-pod style lend itself to review more than if you were using a book or a video?
JohnG, so NOW you tell me! I thought it was aimed at the likes of me and you’d lost the plot entirely. I had no idea that there were a set of patchy Mandarin speakers you were providing for. NOW that makes sense. It’s not there for me to learn from scratch, and I shouldn’t be cursing it while searching for Lessons One to Twenty.
It’s simply not that kinda place.
MichaelB, I think the reason why individual podcast lessons are reviewed so heavily is that their content is not explicitly built on in later lessons, the lessons having no sequence, so the only way to revise reinforce and retain is to repeat them.
Watch TV with your dictionary!! I have enough trouble operating one at a time. You lot are all so brilliant with technology. I’m humbled. I don’t understand half the stuff you talk about. Technophobe that I am, I learn just as much about computers as I do about Chinese here.
Relevant point - understanding when you can see the person’s mouth moving is much easier. The more context is given the easier it is to understand. Watch the news in Chinese and it’s easy to fool yourself that you know what’s going on. Listen on the radio - oops, can’t understand a word. I’m going to stick to audio - not just because I don’t know what mp4 format is - but because in the long term I think just listening is best (and not so dangerous when you are driving). But as my favorite phrase has it 萝卜白菜各有所爱。
Michael Butler has a point.
One day there will be a handheld electronic teacher that can talk to you in Chinese (two way conversation) on any subject, at any level in a natural selection of authentic voices and accents ……..
Perhaps the future learning process being device -> scratch around with characters for a bit + more device -> Talk Chinese to Chinese people (job done).
The “pleasurable experience” hypothesis.
AuntySue I had never considered this (your explanation above) as the reason for many people to review old lessons. It makes sense. My standard for recycling vocabulary or lexis is achieved in the form of English graded readers. Graded readers are text based and as such are probably easier to “control” (organize, sequence, alter, and produce) than an equivalent volume of i-pods. Krashen, the guru of Comprehensible Input, is himself a huge advocate of “extensive reading”.
If I read your posting correctly I think you are advocating for more “control” of vocabulary in new lessons and better lexical organization so review is possible without going back to old lessons. I on the other hand am interested in what makes c-poddies go back. Do they go back to hear words that can’t otherwise be heard or is it because something about i-pods makes review a pleasurable experience? Most likely it is a combination of these and other reasons. However, I’m personally leaning towards the “pleasurable experience” hypothesis as the most important reason influencing someone’s decision to go back and review an old lesson.
Michael I would be interested to know your opinion on my view.
You mention extensive reading which I think is applicable in teaching English or other European languages but a horrendous mistake when teaching Chinese to foreigners. The Hanzi present too much of a barrier and however you argue some of the undoubted benefits that the Chinese writing system possesses, as a platform for early and rapid second language acquisition it fails miserably.
Despite the above many people are still lumbered with systems that attempt a graded reader approach for Chinese. I would suggest that comprehensible input should be coming in through the ears in the initial stages of learning Chinese.
I have encountered Europeans who have confidently mastered several European languages mainly through their own application of extensive reading and then hit a brick wall with Chinese because when attempting a similar approach with Chinese the acquisition of Hanzi slows them down to a snails pace.
Maybe the review of audio lessons is just analogous to re-reading a written text (something done all the time) and yes it would probably occur less if the lessons were graded in a more structured way. Of course there is less effort involved in reviewing and acquiring via audio because you may listen in places where you couldn’t normally pull out a book to read.
Acquisition of Chinese through audio (plus video where applicable) is good. Acquisition of Chinese via reading and writing very very bad (replace bad with slow if you wish).
Of course this is a nightmare for academics and teachers who are so used to basing their teaching on written materials. But in my mind writing is a kind of frozen language and whilst you can equip an Asian learner with the skills to defrost English with the equivalent of a microwave oven, the poor unfortunate learner of Chinese is stuck with older,slower methods.
Chris,
I am completely in agreement with you however I’d like to add some thoughts that might extend this conversation a bit. First, I’m not aware of any Graded Readers in Chinese for foreign speakers (I am not well informed on this issue however). I would agrue that learning a language through a written medium (text) and learning by way of graded readers is very different. Graded readers differ from text in terms of content and purpose. So, I’m wondering if you are thinking about text (in a textbook) and graded readers as being the same two things.
Second, as an aside, even if you created Chinese graded readers (using the spoken lexicon as the graded base) you would still obviously present students with the problem of learning to read the characters. Still, learning to read is much less painstaking and time consuming than learning to both read and write. My guess is that learning to read can probably be done in 1/3 the time it takes to learn both reading and writing. This approach has been experimented with in Singapore (can anybody provide details on this?).
Third, I find it interesting the way you have likened listening to reading. They are both forms of input. Maybe, arguing for user friendly comphrensible input in Chinese is equivalent to arguing for an extensive graded listening program.
Michael,
Ahh I have no education background, just trying to learn Chinese on my own and developing my own system. I am probably partly thinking of textbooks and partly some reading materials I have seen on University sites (which probably don’t count ;)).
The thing that sparked me off was the idea of extensive input particularly as I have encountered a number of Europeans who acquired another European language partly by reading trashy novels (they found that they couldn’t use this approach with Chinese).
What I should have said is that normal approach seems to be very literature centric. Input is input and surely the initial input can come via the ears?
Now after the first initial hump I do divert a little energy to learning to read but I find it easy to learn to read content that I can already understand by listening or that I could already talk about in Chinese. This does not work the other way around (at least not for me).
If I attended a college course I would hope to go home with a usb stick rammed full of audio for my homework, I would not want to be worrying about hanzi for at least six months. Ken has a link on his latest blog post (about TCSL) that describes the anguish of someone who has to learn the characters early (and doesn’t seem likely to be continuing the course).
IT’S NOT THE LOOK - Ken, I think you’re underestimating video just because the stuff out there is, what’s Aric’s term for it, ahh yes, crap. I’m not sure how you’d do it online, but imagine a Made-in-the USA dvd, not a cheap China rip.This DVD or online presentation has the following:
DVD
Chinesepod: Prequel and Legend Series
*With director comments
-able to turn on/off subtitles: in pinyin, literal English, idiomatic English, hanzi traditional, hanzi simplified, French, Korean, Japanese and Russian.
-able to turn on/off director comments: comments on grammar from John, funny stories from Ken, and Aric’s say what? comments.
-mp3 files and transcripts, transfer to you mp3 player, laptop
-accompanying exercise files and special features: out-takes of Aric trying to speak Chinese, Jenny’s birthday bash, and Romping thru Shanghai.
-ahh yes, and it’s in a special box set for $59.99
It wouldn’t be that hard to do, strategize and plan your Cpod curriculum over a year and then do the compilation.
*btw, Yah I think the Happy Chinese, Journey and Linese are really geared toward Chinese speakers. Yah, native speakers. There’s no other reason than that when they have the English read slowly and ohh so clearly. It also is a nice feeling for the Chinese who want to feel they are teaching foreigners Chinese. Nobody actually learns anything from them. Kinda like TV in general!
Lantian,
I think the DVD idea is great in theory. However, my guess is that it is financially untenable… for now.
I think your observations on the Happy Chinese videos are absolutely spot on - very insightful.
Ken Carroll
CONGLOMERATES - Ken, are you telling me Cpod is not a huge media-conglomerate that spans 18 nations and has ad revenue from the Superbowl, 2008 Olympics and Coca-Cola?!
I thought you all were out there getting some big’money! What I’m talking about is what to do with it a couple years out! If you jeery-rig the ‘products’ now, you’ll also be way ahead when it is time to put it together, and/or the internet video technology catches up with the dreams. Who knows what the gals and guys at Google are gonna do now that they have the YouTube IP in-house!
I’m from LA, so like everyone there I’ve got my script and I rail against the studios. I already know you guys are worse than the MGM movie archives and Michael Jackson’s strangle hold on Beatle tunes, there’s huge untapped value in all that Jpod material, just thing of the great audio there, both in the scripted dialogue and banter. All those flash audio clips. All those expanded dialogue text.
My comment wasn’t really about making a DVD, but how to take the interesting presentation options in today’s DVDs and put them online.
How many words are currently in the “Cpod lexicon”. Do you even know? Every word, sentence and utterance you’ve produced can be re-worked into very educationally valid and sound exercises, games, and materials. This is very different than writing a book, where the text becomes fixed onto a page, immobile, flat, unleveraged. You’ve got DIGITAL goods!
I’m not saying slow down at all with the primary work of making great podcasts, but I thought the more money would allow you to raise everybody’s salaries, paint the factory, hire three more Jenny’s, and make ‘other’ products that can teach the world Chinese!
I’d mentioned overseas Chinese, but I think Lantian right that the Happy China shows are in many ways geared towards Chinese people in China. No matter how many foreigners in China or abroad watch the shows, the fact that its broadcast in China means that there will be many more Chinese people watching it. And you’re also right that a lot of the Chinese people watch it to practice their English by reading the English subtitles, and that another function of the show is to make Chinese people feel that there are a lot of foreigners learning Chinese.
Your DVD sounds great. I’d consider buying it, but I’m not sure about the $59.99 price tag.
I’m looking forward to seeing how Chinese Pod develops. I think Lantian’s point about making use of the “Cpod lexicon” is a good one.
My mom has been looking for a way to learn Chinese, and I just sent her a link to the site today.
John G! I gotta ask, so how did you learn your Chinese! Blood, sweat and tears? Hitting the books? Years? Tell me I can just hang out with my shao kao chef and chat myself to advanced XinJiang mumbling.
Da Niu’s Chinese is also darn impressive, all the colloqialism he seems to easy blurt out. Tell me you guys are reading from queue cards…lie–make me feel better!
Is your co-host single?
How I envy you two. But yah, any pointers — I am very much in the intermediate plateau, ready to jump off! Any tidbits would be mucho appreciated.
What do you think of the zh.chinesepod format? Do you listen to it? Useful?
Lantian,
Hmm… left this thread for a while. Not sure if you’ll see my reply.
Han Jia’s single or not status is probably not something I’m supposed to reveal.
I’ve been in China for about five years, and learned most of my Chinese here, although I did study some Chinese at university in the US. I think that the primary advantage to learning Chinese in China is that the language environment is accessible basically at any time, even sometimes when you might not be ready for it, whereas you really have to work to create an environment for yourself if you’re studying outside of China.
In many ways I feel like my study of Chinese is just beginning, but below are some scattered thoughts from my experience so far, presented in the form of “tips”. Please take them just as thoughts, as everyone’s learning experience is different, and some of what I say might be 胡说八道.
1. Focus on pronunciation. Early. For better or worse, when people judge how we speak Chinese or any foreign language, their judgments are primarily based on pronunciation. If you’re learning in China, good pronunciation leads to a lot of positive reinforcement. It’s very hard to get the hang of Chinese pronunciation at the beginning, but it may be even harder to change bad habits later on.
2. Imitation is the only way to learn pronunciation. Well, maybe not the only way, but I think it sometimes gets neglected. Simply reading pinyin out loud reinforces bad habits, and just listening to recordings doesn’t magically teach us how to make the sounds. For me, I’ve found that the only way to improve pronunciation is to listen, repeat, listen, repeat, think, listen, repeat…
3. Don’t be afraid to sound stupid. Chinese sounds different from English, and from every other language. The sounds that our native language experience tells us matches up to the various versions of pinyin are ever-so-slightly wrong. Producing the sounds that make up Chinese will sound strange and stupid to our ears, and we’re likely to feel embarrassed about it, but we need to get over that feeling.
4. Keep it interesting and fun. From my limited exposure to ChinesePod, this seems like a good place for that. I’ve also seen a lot of people mention this in the comments, but it’s worth repeating. Nothing makes for less effective study than boredom. For me, the TV shows, movies, and novels that I added to my traditional study materials made my use of the traditional study materials much more effective.
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Plateaus are tough. I feel like I’ve been on one for a couple of years, and I’m not sure how to advance. The problem with the intermediate/advanced level is that, once you get to a level at which you can communicate about virtually any topic, and use your existing language skills to make it through any communication difficulties that do come up, a lot of the motivation goes away.
I seem to remember reading an article by Sinosplice John about the different stages of learning Chinese, and I think he did a good job of describing the difficulties of moving from “intermediate” to “advanced” to “beyond”. Let me know if you have any breakthroughs about plateaus.
I hadn’t listened to the zh.chinesepod lessons before, but I just listened to my first episode (国产大片), and found it to be great! The topic was interesting, and the two hosts spoke clearly without sounding unnatural. Great for listening and imitation.
John G,
It’s good to see you contributing here. Kudos for the insights you’ve shared with us.
Ken Carroll
Hi John G,
Thanks for the reply! This blog has picked up again, almost missed your comment. Glad I didn’t though. Although most of what you said isn’t new (darn it no magic pill to swallow), I did find it both re-assuring and promising. Keeping things fresh, paying attention, having fun — this seems to be the ‘walk more, eat fruits and vegetables plan’. I could do that!
I also saw in your comments the importance of ‘paying attention’. I realize that sometimes, especially when I encounter say a person with a regional accent that I quickly ‘tune out’. Same with stuff that gets too far ahead of me. When I first started learning Chinese I was pretty diligent in the sense that I carried around my electronic dictionary, would stop and look up characters, review, ask people to re-say things a lot.
These days I pretty much can get by, like you said, I can work around most language/communication difficulties. My last resort being ‘just re-say this like you’re talking to a 3 year old.’
Maybe it’s time to do a little more review and carry around the dictionary again, at least one day out of the week anyway.
John G. you also said “For me, Ive found that the only way to improve pronunciation is to listen, repeat, listen, repeat, think, listen, repeat… ….3. Don’t be afraid to sound stupid. … Producing the sounds that make up Chinese will sound strange and stupid to our ears… need to get over that feeling.”
From this I picked up two things, it’s important to ‘think’ a little, pay attention and ‘work on the pronunciation.’ These days I don’t beat myself up when I myself can ‘hear’ my pronunciation morphing into ‘English-ese’, this is especially when I am trying to explain new ideas and am just spitting out thoughts-words that don’t tap previous set patterns or phrases I’m used to saying. I figure at least my brain is working overtime on fluency and communication. I doesn’t have the necessary CPU to keep up the pronunciation.
But I do know where my pronunciation tends to slip, and some good practice does help convert it. It’s like saying ‘Olympics’ and ‘ao lin pi ke’ in close succession. It is necessary to train my mind to de-couple those sounds depending on whether I’m saying English or Chinese. Maybe one day my English will digress into sounding like accented Chinese. j/k
About #3. Sounding stupid. One of these days, I keep saying I’ll do it, but I just need to find a remote place, I need to practice yelling and enunciating. Anybody who has seen/heard Chinese in the ‘real’, knows why this is necessary. I gotta quit being a girly-man and Terminate this weakness in my Chinese linguistic repertoire.
Thanks again for the response, I’m gonna hit year two soon and I think I’m doing alright. Cheers!
Lantian,
I loved your comment about the “walk more, eat more fruits and vegetables” plan. Funny how that one always seems to work.
Your comment about not beating yourself up when you have problems also resonated with me. It made me think of another way of looking at language learning that I think is helpful: as a mixed of “broad” and “focused” practice.
With listening, I think activities like casually listening to the radio or watching movies in one’s target language are helpful; I also think it’s necessary to have some focused practice, for instance listening to the same lesson repeatedly, or watching a movie several times.
With reading, I think focused activities like going through a lesson in a very detailed manner, or looking up every word while one reads the newspaper, are extremely important. It’s also good to try to read the newspaper today without looking up any words except for ones that are absolutely necessary, or to read a novel without a dictionary.
With speaking (your example), it’s exhausting and not very effective to approach every conversation trying to pronounce every syllable perfectly or avoid every grammar mistake, and it’s freeing and productive to forget about these things sometimes. Also, to gain precision, I believe that it’s necessary to spend substantial time on one’s pronunciation and spoken grammar through activities such as focused imitation or recording and listing to oneself speaking.
Sometimes I wonder if it’s in the mix of broad and focused practice that learning solidifies itself. I certainly feel that such a mix can speed up the learning process. Of course, I have no data to back up my conclusions.
Congratulations on two years of Chinese study! Sounds like you’ve made a lot of progress. Keep having fun!
(Hmm… I’ve enjoyed this conversation. I’ve never really thought this stuff out much, so it’s cool to have this forum to discuss.)
Hey John, what’s Daniel up to these days, if you don’t mind me asking?
Hi John G:
I just discovered your show last week. I’ve about 1 year Chinese study and from my experience learning 4 languages, I’m looking forward to using your videos.
Just one technical comment - is there anyway to improve the quality or appearance of the character subtitles? The internet
version is just a bit blurry. Otherwise - a great show. Thanks !
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