The HSK is a test designed to assess the Mandarin proficiency of non-native speakers of the language (the equivalent of TOEFL or IELTS for learners of English.) The HSK was developed by the HSK Center of Beijing Language and Culture University and it is the nationally accepted standard.
I’m interested to know what you think (or don’t think) about the HSK. In my experience, few westerners see much need for it. ChinesePod learners, for example, want to learn Chinese because … they want to learn Chinese. We tend to be an idealistic bunch who do this for the love of it. In places like Japan and Korea, however, motivations are different: people tend to study Chinese in pursuit of a concrete benefit - the HSK qualification, for example.
What are your attitudes to this type of certification? Does it interest you? Why? Why not?
Ken Carroll
You can’t compare it like that. Even if you are learning Chinese for fun, at some point you may need to take that test.
Most learners of English want to learn English, because … they want to learn English. To communicate with people from other countries, to increase their chances on the job market, out of interest, or for whatever other reason. Still there’s a need for TOEFL tests, not for the learners to test themselves, but for employers or universities to know what the level of English is of potential employees, or for the learners themselves to prove that they are proficient in English.
The test is not a goal in itself, but even if you are learning Chinese for idealistic reasons, if at some point you decide to put your Chinese to use by taking up a job in China (for example), you’ll probably need a test like that to prove your ability.
Edith,
I’m not we could say that most people learn English because they like it. Hundreds of millions of learn English globally because their educational systenms, job requirements, etc, demand it.
I agree that both types of motivation can work in tandem. However, I would also say that the ChinesePod approach in it’s present form would come across as a bit odd in Japan/Korea, where they want training that focuses clearly on the test.
Ken Carroll
I guess I’m a cross of both.
I have really wanted to learn Chinese since I was young.
I lived in China for 4 months 3 years ago. Learned a lot. I quit my job to come back to China because it really is a passion. The plan was to come to China for just one year to learn Chinese…But what does learn Chinese mean? There are so many different levels.
So I set a goal…I want to pass level 11 of the HSK in April. It’s not the easiest thing to do, but also not the most difficult. I’ve still got like 4-5 months and I think I will accomplish my goal, but without the goal of the big test then I wouldn’t have as much motivation to push myself to study all day long.
Also when I go back home to the states I want proof of my Chinese ability. A certificate will look good on my resume, plus it will impress the hell out of people from other Asian countries.
I am glad you address the HSK. As I posted several times before I would be highly sceptical if you tried to establish your own “Chinesepod exams” and “Chinesepod Certificates”.
But that does not mean that there is no need to support passing well-accepted tests. And as Erika wrote above, even for students who are purely intrinsically motivated an additional entry on the CV documenting your efforts would come handy.
Although I would object if you wanted to give up your current approach with all that juicy day-to-day-Chinese and special-topic-lessons, I could definately imagine a series of (Advanced?) lessons and tools geared more directly towards the HSK. As a complementary / additional service.
I have to admit that I do not know much about that exam. From what I heard even the lower levels are above the Chinesepod Advanced shows (?), so this topic is currently not yet relevant for me…
I agree with a lot of what was said by other posters, it’s been of help to me studying Chinese on my own to have an HSK goal as a measure of progress over time, can help on a resume too I guess, can be required for studying at Chinese univ. much as the TOEFL in the US or to enter business schools.
There’s one major difference both with TOEFL and ChinesePod though, HSK is mainly testing reading comprehension. I only know the basic and standard HSKs, not sure about advanced or specialized versions (e.g. for tourism). Basic has no writting test and standard only requires that you write 20 or so characters, both have a little oral understanding test but the bulk of the tests are reading comprehension and grammar. You could be level 5 or 6 and hardly understand or be able to utter a word, I know, I’ve been there.
THere’s no doubt that these two (oral/written) dimensions can reinforce each other but they require a different approach as s.o. recently commented in another thread. In my experience, leaving outside China, it becomes really powerful when you can combine the two, but it can take time and frustration
Yv
So basically these tests test in the opposite direction to what seem obvious for learning a language. Working from reading and writing towards listening and speaking at the higher levels Grrr. I am having a bad day.
I haven’t addressed the problem of getting Chinese on my CV yet (I need to be much better before I worry) guess I will have to get creative when I do.
I can see the relevance of tests but if I was going to address the level of a potentian employee in English, I would do something creative like errr speaking to them for a while in English. Not so easy in an educational cattle-market because of time pressures though.
If you want a higher level job though and need to prove Chinese competancy in Chinese, why not just write part of your CV in Chinese and link to Chinese video presentation of why your are a good candidate?
Chris,
Great suggestion about the CV! I like it.
Ken Carroll
I’m studying Chinese after having travelled to China for two months (in the process completing the Pimsleur course on my mp3 player while on trains and busses
). I acquired the basics and found taaht I have a desire to improve my abilities.
I think that setting a goal can serve as a yardstick for progress and motivate one to push the envelope and improve, and so I’ve set a goal of taking the (intermediate) test at some point (probably around a year from now). Of course, having the HSK seal of approval would come in handy if I ever decided to put my knowledge of Chinese on my resume (a side goal).
I’ve been using Chinesepod for some two months now (having done about 100 lessons beginning from the first). I have no idea how my level at chinesepod relates to the HSK levels. I would greatly welcome some reference to it.
For example, I would greatly appreciate an optional mapping of the word bank vocabulary to the standard vocabulary sets of the HSK (just another column saying that this word belongs to HSK Word List Level 1 or 2, etc.) for those who wish to know. I don’t think this is too technically difficult to achieve and would go a long way towards helping those of us who wish to study for the HSK.
Another suggestion would be some sort of entry in the wiki discussing the subject and suggesting how one could go about using chinesepod in order to prepare oneself for the exam . For example, which levels in chinesepod roughly correspond to which levels in the HSK and just how many of each level of chinesepod lessons is required in order to reach a particular level of the HSK exam.
Of course, lessons geared toward the HSK would also be very welcome, although I’m aware that studying for the HSK exam is not the purpose of nor is it the spirit of chinesepod
Cheers,
Yair.
A couple of brief comments on HSK at this point. (HSK is much more John’s terrirory, but anyway.)
First, what the HSK regards as ‘intermediate’, corresponds to our ‘advanced’. These terms are, of course, arbitrary - ultimately it doesn’t matter what you call them. However, the people who put HSK together seem to me to be very out of touch with how foreigners might approach the language. The levels jump really fast, to the point where few of us could actually manage to stay with the pace. (Now, I’m equating the word ‘foreigner’ with ‘westrerner’. I understand that it varies, and it may be easier for certain other Asian nationalities.) The HSK advanced is scary stuff.
For us, one of the motivation when we started was to provide a truly basic program that anyone could participate in, and one that allowed learners to progress at a more realistic pace, i.e. much more slowly than the HSK prep materials would suggest. That’s just reality as I see it, and that’s what we wil keep doing.
I can also tell you that we are considering a program for the HSK. Let me emphasize the ‘considering’. It wouldn’t happen in the near future, but it is one reason why I’m interested in hearing your ideas on HSK.
Ken Carroll
HSK? What I could really use is a handy self-assessment tool that would both reinforce what I’ve already learned and help motivate my progress. Since ChinesePod excels in its PodCasts, how about putting a verbal quiz right at the end of each PodCast. Ask questions of the listener and pause for a few seconds so the listener can see if he or she is able to provide the answer to themselves in real time. The questions should primarily cover the key vocabulary words, phrases, and sentences. It could also test the cultural aspects covered in the PodCast. Generalized examples include: “How do you say “X” word or phrase in Mandarin? (Pause.) How do you say “Y” Mandarin word or phrase in English? (Pause.) What’s the cultural significance of …? (Pause.) Why not put a few out there in each level and see what the listener feedback is? Sorry if I changed the subject, but this would be of practical use to me. Thanks for considering it.
I agree with Delta: Self-assessment tools like the Listening-test-beta you presented recently would add both more control and more fun to the learning-process. Those could already be designed in line with a possible future HSK curriculum. I would see these tools independent of the individual lectures, though.
I think the right time for entering HSK is when Bob and Bazza start complaining about that “Advanced-Scary-Gap”. So in approximately 4-6 month.
I have spent years in a Cantonese language environment at home and in China Towns in Australia and the US (actually, only San Fran), and am now learning Mandarin formally (and would love to learn Cantonese formally) at a local college (Community College level, but with native speakers who are mostly from Taiwan).
I would like to get to the point where I can speak without an accent and can read both newspapers and more serious material. That will take a couple of years.
I find the ChinesePod material suppliments the New Practical Chinese Reader materials we use in my courses, because it exposes me to more speakers and introduces things in more interesting wasy, however the formal material I am using also has its benefits.
All that said, I think that the HSK will be something that I would want to do in a year or two …
On a different topic, I simply cannot make rhyme or reason out of simplified characters. For example, how does 頭 relate to 头? And how can anyone think that 龙 is a more beautiful character than 龍 ?
Richard: they are called simplified, not beautified.
As for the HSK and different levels: perhaps the advanced level (”scary stuff”) is comparable to the Cambridge Proficiency Test in English. One needs a very high level of English, including the use of different registers, to pass that test. Many native speakers wouldn’t pass it.
A university judging foreign-student applications requires the candidates to supply a TOEFL score — passing the TOEFL requires a basic understanding of English, and will probably mean that university lectures will pose no problem. An NGO trying to select a candidate for a high-profile international diplomatic position will probably require more than that: the Cambridge Proficiency Test.
Hi poddies
I’m a Chinesepod aficionado living in Japan. Besides HSK,
Chuken (http://www.chuken.gr.jp) also has a good reputation
among Chinese learners in Japan. (More than 40,000 people
each year take this test, according to the web site.) While
HSK might be for those who have in some way already mastered
the Chinese language and want some credit for it, Chuken is
more basic-level-oriented and can be used as a learning step
in the first few years of learning Chinese.
Roughly speaking, 准4级 or 4级 corresponds to newbie,
3级 elementary, 2级 intermediate or upper intermediate,
准1级 advanced.
I’m very interested in the HSK. If I want to use Chinese professionally, I’ll probably need some kind of qualification.
Maybe we can have a lesson on HSK? Purely in English? Where to do it, how the exam is laid out, etc.
HSk — or testing for that matter — is an interesting subject. I understand the problems of studying a language just for the sake of a test (I saw that problem in some of my students when I taught English in Taiwan). As noted above, if you only study for a test, then things like speaking and ‘communicating’ can get sidetracked. Also, long-term motivation can suffer.
However, we cpod listeners are aware of the danger. So I say: test us!! I think it would be motivating and fun. Perhaps Chinesepod could offer some tests where we could get a sense of our level (however arbitrary that might be). It would be interesting… We could even have a scoreboard and rank all the cpod member who participated. haha - maybe my competitive side is starting to show..
Personally, I’d like to do the HSK just for the hell of it. I’m working on reading at the moment, but I’m not able to read more than, say, 500 words. I’m studying traditional characters and I’ve heard the HSK is only simplified. So I’d like more info about that — a forum would be nice.
Also, regarding the above comments by Henning and Delta. I totally agree. I’ve said it before, but some kind of self-assessment tool within the podcasts could be very good (Pimsleur style). This is, basically, a test. Or think of it as ‘audio flashcards’. You could also have a review lesson/quiz once and a while that was stuctured like this.
I strongly disagree with most of what’s been said here about the HSK and testing in general. I don’t think they have any place on
ChinesePod, they can be done separately by those who wish it. Start testing and grading here and ChinesePod will suffer the same disease that infests most educational institutions, it has to keep the testing in mind while delivering the goods, and then while choosing the goods to deliver. Consider, how much did you learn in senior high school that gave you real life skills? Go ahead, turn ChinesePod into any other Chinese class but on the net instead, and enjoy, I won’t be here if that happens.
Another approach might be to look at what ChinesePod is here for, what it is trying to get us to learn, and if you must test, test THAT instead. We can’t get that anywhere else. For example, why in the 21st century must a test be done with reading and writing, why not recordings and things like skype? If you have worthwhile values, use them, not somebody else’s. Who knows, it might eventually cause others to reconsider theirs, once employers realise that candidates have evidence of real communication ability instead of big scores in fairy tale reading levels.
Hi Auntie Sue,
I wouldn’t mind some Chinese fairy tale reading skills. I have kids.
I totally agree with you that Chinesepod should by all means avoid to become exam-driven, because that would poison this approach. But providing voluntarily self-assessment tools and at a later stage HSK add-on-materials are something totally different - more an icing on the already delicious cake.
By the way: I definately learned valuable stuff in school and University - in classes that I found to be interesting in the first place. In those cases tests were just confirmations of progress rather than “motivation”.
Henning, I didn’t mean that school was uninteresting or not valuable, but did they teach you to drive a car, look after a child, rent a house, evaluate different types of mortgages, tolerate cultural diversity, resist peer pressure with grace, file a tax return, wear clothes that don’t make people laugh, defuse an argument, fix a leaking tap, make an imperfect relationship work, avoid people hassling you on the street, bring joy to people you meet, eat well economically, and set up a simple firewall? Did you have to study algebra for years before being shown the simple joys of topology or how to spot when statistics are being wrongly used against you? If you didn’t do a science degree you probably didn’t get a grounding in evaluating experimental results that determine whether you take aspirin or some other pain killer, worry about cholesterol, or choose one medical treatment over another. If you didn’t study law you might not know some of the things that could have kept you out of trouble. None of these important topics are examined in high school, therefore they’re not taught, and we don’t expect them to be taught.
Now if I were to go into a high school and offer “voluntary self-assessment tools” to assess adult life skills, when they’re only being taught good academic stuff, do you see the disparity? And if those teenagers were enjoying AuntySue’s After-school Real Life Class on the weekend when I suddenly whipped out a calculus test, optional of course, I wouldn’t really expect to be thanked for it even if I did promise a neat little diploma to those who passed.
I don’t mind some light kind of self-assessment, but if we must then we should only do it on OUR own terms, not on the terms of some remote organisation with an entirely inapplicable agenda. Don’t test something that’s not the essence of what’s being taught.
Auntie,
for some of those skills you mentioned I am definately in dire need of your Classes. Where do I find your podcast ;).
Some others I did not learn directly in school, but school provided me with some foundations and conceptual frameworks to aquire those efficiently (text comprehension, argumentation & presentation skills, logic & math, English,…). The trick is to teach a general toolset that is applicable beyond single use.
And I believe (hope?) that after attaining a certain level of mastery in Chinese here even passing tests from those remote organizations shouldn’t be all to far off the road, so why not add a short detour for those who like to give it a shot….
because you can’t teach one thing then test something else
I think it would make a useful add-on to what ChinesePod offers, without affecting the core of what chinesepod is. Also, if it is something that people really want…then chinesepod may listen to them and add some kind of package. As to the exact nature of that…that’s not so important at this stage. ChinesePod is just trying to gauge the level of interest in such a thing.
To pick up on what Jeff said in the fourth paragraph of his comments above, almost the entirety of each Pimsleur lesson is a review and drill session. First, they introduce a word, phrase, or sentence in a slow, gentle way. Then they repeatedly ask you at timed intervals (a key feature) to remember and repeat it out loud in Mandarin. After pausing to give you a chance to verbalize the answer to yourself, they then enunciate the answer; and then they pause again so that you can further absorb and repeat it yet again. This repetition creates a reinforcing feedback loop where your brain forms the neural connections needed for retention. Over the course of their lessons, they gradually pick up the pace. Instead of being in a passive, entertainment mode, you are actively listening and participating. The whole lesson is a work out. After listening to a lesson a few times, it’s burned into your brain. There are also a number of deficiencies with Pimsleur: One is that Pimsleur leaves off short of where ChinesePod intermediate begins. Another is that, over time, Pimsleur seems repetitive and boring because it’s a humorless drill session almost in its entirety. ChinesePod, on the other hand, is perhaps too entertaining, and requires that I do no work or show verifiable results. I listen to Ken and Jenny the way one watches a soap. I love it. But then I feel guilty. What would be perfect is a marriage of the two approaches. Keep ChinesePod fun, the way it is, but then add a Pimsleur-like component. As I said in the “Classifying Difficulty on ChinesePod” blog, this can be embedded into the Podcast, or it can be produced as a separate PodCast (the PodCast “Reloaded,” as it were). At first I thought it most convenient to put it at the end of the PodCast. Subsequently, I realized that it should be a full scale separately produced PodCast and put into the premium section to cover the cost of producing it. Also, that would draw in new premium subscribers who prefer the PodCast approach to the online software approach. Note: The “Reloaded” PodCast does not necessarily have to star Ken and Jenny since it’s essentially a drill. I can envision Ken and Jenny providing at least a taste of it at the end of each PodCast, then referring the listener to the premium section to continue the exercises, PodCast style or software style, your preference. It could even be a different class of subscription. This and a full transcript is all that I need.
I took the HSK, I did okay with a 6 but that was a year ago. I’m sure I could do better now if I was to restest, except I wont take the HSK again. I felt that although it is something to put on a resume, you spend so much time studying vocabulary (3000 words at intermediate level!) and then spend even more time studying grammar, pouring over 1000’s of sentences trying to spot the tiniest mistakes and then selecting an answer from a,b,c,d. You can ask a native person what the difference between the answers are, and to be honest most of the time they cant give you a clear, decisive answer. In short, you spend so much time and energy on learning these words in such a short time that you quickly forget them straight after the HSK is done.
I feel that the HSK should evolve into something more like the advanced HSK at all levels, my meaning is that there should be a speaking test for basic, intermediate and advanced. Japanese and Korean students already have a grasp of of Chinese characters from an early age, giving them what I see as unfair advantage over learners from other countries, as they can already read sentences and get a basic idea of what they mean. I’m sure if there was a speaking test for all levels, the HSK would become a much more equal playing field.
The HSK examinations really need to change, at the moment its too much rote learning - its more of a test of the memory than your actual Chinese ability.
As Ken wrestles with the HSK test and we wait to find out the outcome maybe I can cast some of the replies on this group in the form of questions and answers. If I have missed yours please add it to this list (sorry in advance).
1. Is the HSK test important as a measuring device?
-Yes, but maybe more so for people who already know Chinese characters before they begin studying the spoken language (Japanese and Korean and some Cantonese speakers).
-No, it is out of touch with reality and gives “unfair” advantage to people who come to Chinese already knowing Chinese characters.
2. Does the HSK test do a good job of testing all levels?
Probably not. It was suggested that the HSK is more applicable to defining the ability of upper level learners especially those who know how to read Chinese characters.
3. Is it valuable to pass a qualifying test?
Yes, from two angles. First, in passing the test ones gets a well-recognized qualification. This qualification is useful from a number of points of view. Second, it gives some students something to aim for. By turning the passing of the test into a goal some maintained that it gave them short-term motivation.
4. Is testing in general a friend or an enemy of the student?
Some argued that testing unacceptably distorts both the goals of learning and ultimately the organization that is “set up” to teach. Others argued in favor of testing to support point 3 above. Some argued that testing could be designed as a kind of an add-on that would not distort the mission of Chinesepod.
Some other questions that have occurred to me.
5. Would testing that covers just the skills taught by Chinesepod distort the perceived mission of Chinesepod?
6. Should the design of upper level Chinesepod materials be partly driven by the lexis that is on the HSK tests?
7. If lexis from the HSK tests is explicitly included in the lessons, should some sort or distinction be made between Chinesepod lessons designed to support the HSK and those that don’t have this as a purpose?
Incidentally, last time I registered to the HSK in 2005, we were asked to fill in a questionnaire. This was to gather input in view of a major overhaul of the HSK test, something that won’t happen overnight but seems to be on the agenda of the powers that be.
Some people want tests to measure their progress, some want something well known (in China) to put on their CV, and some believe that the HSK is a very good measure of what they see as important in learning Chinese.
Everyone’s tending to muddle them all together. There’s no reason to make those assumptions. Spades are spades.
A lot of the unique value of ChinesePod is due to the fact that it is NOT HSK-driven. It seems to me that HSK has achieved a level of respect simply by communicating respect for itself, and having no competitors. If and only if you want your CV to impress people in China, it’s very useful. For the rest of the world there needs to be alternatives that have meaning and relevance. A well structured and documented competency based assessment of communication skills would leave HSK for dead in many other parts of the world, where that’s the kind of attainment people are looking for. And our kinds of skills will ready us for that. Meanwhile HSK will always be honoured by Chinese people in China. Apples and oranges.
Are people here asking for what they really want, or clutching to something remotely similar, sacrificing relevant competency goals while seeking apparent status on someone else’s terms? Who really wants to do a HSK exam while paying for training, if that training doesn’t prepare you for the exam? OK, so run a HSK prep course here? Do you really expect that to look and feel like ChinesePod does now, AND to be good exam-success dollar value compared to classes etc, AND to rush you through all the vocab and grammar and characters quickly enough, AND to still wake up each morning busting to get at the next day’s lesson? OK, sure, whatever, don’t let me stop you.
Also, why is it that the certificate for the advanced level HSK have has no ‘valid to’ period, where as the lower ones, intermediate, elementary, basic etc are only good for two years?
The answer to the previous post re: HSK validity seems obvious to me. You can get reasonably good HSK grades my sheer rote as has been said a few times, but it can be forgotten just as quickly. Getting through the advanced level is an entirely different story, however much you forget there’s still be plenty left (the Chinese themselves forget how to write *some* characters, they don’t forget their language)
Yv
I passed the HSK a month or so after graduating with a degree in Chinese seven years ago. I thought it was a reasonable exam apart from the audio-recordings that accompanied it. It was extremely difficult to understand what the woman speaker was saying, she certainly wasn’t speaking Chinese Broadcasting standard Mandarin.
I just took the HSK for the second time this past weekend, and I can say that it is given in both simplified and traditional characters, so we had to sit on the correct side of the test room for each. There were also a larger number of adults and Westerners taking it this time. Last year most were middle school-age children of Chinese immigrants to America, and only two of us were white, so I think more people know about it and want to take it.
Again, the reason to take the test is simply to have a measurement to give to people who wouldn’t have the slightest idea if you actually know any Chinese at all, and in the Western world where the war on terror is being fought, calls from the governments have been made for everyone with language ability to get tested on some proficiency test so they know what resources they have for a variety of foreign-language needs. Just because a test doesn’t test every aspect of language competency, knowledge or skill doesn’t make it useless or something to be ignored. Certainly the HSK test does show some level of reading and listening ability that is genuine, and I’ve noticed in my own language development that the more prepared I am for the test, the easier it is for me to read actual real-world Chinese books, and the vocabulary lists are often for words you will frequently come across in average reading, so why not just learn them at one shot and save yourself the dictionary time? I will agree, however, that the HSk test measures very subtle language use, picking up the most obscure definitions of well-known words to trip you up on, and my native speaker tutor couldn’t even guess the correct answers on the fill-in section where you write the characters.
Should Chinesepod offer fare geared for HSK preparation? My thought is it shouldn’t. I like the idea that it fills in the topical gaps in academic materials, even test prep books, and the broad array of vocabulary gives me enough exposure to various topics to at least recognize them again in other contexts. The HSK is just a stepping stone to build a foundation for reading and maybe writing, but only a foundation. In order to read and write fluently, you still need much more than the test provides.
In my opinion, the HSK test, although not perfect, does represent the testing standard in China today. It is more of a screening tool as opposed to a relevant measure of proficiency (however you choose to define that term).
If Chinesepod were smart, they would offer material to their subscribers as a prep towards meeting the HSK requirements, not for the purpose of offering a useful proficiency tool, but simply because the demand is there for this type of service.
Michele said:
“…and in the Western world where the war on terror is being fought, calls from the governments have been made for everyone with language ability to get tested on some proficiency test…”
Really? I’ve never heard of that. I guess it’s a USA thing.
Not sure it’s a USA thing either. I haven’t heard of any call for “everyone with language ability to get tested”. Yes, there are employeers looking for people with language skills, but most don’t advertise for any type of outside test score.
Yes, there is a huge demand for folks with translation skills to fight the war on terror in Iraq.
However, here in the good ‘ole USA, the army just fired a translation specialist simply because he was gay. He was an American who had taught himself fluency in Arabic. The Army determined that his sexual orientation would “get in the way of his translation work”. Apparently, they thought he would become too distracted by the other men in his unit, which would interfere with his translation duties.
Obviously there are no women in that unit either… I have a certain degree of language proficiency, and even have some Arabic, but I wouldn’t go near that sort of area with a barge pole. I’m somewhat of a pacifist and couldn’t easily get myself involved, even if there was a direct threat.
I don’t think that HSK references within ChinesePod would distort the way it works, because it seems that a number of people using it are working towards it. However, I agree that there is a very fine line to walk there, because the distortion would creep up and suddenly a group of people might up and disappear. I would assume that much of the HSK vocabulary is useful stuff that is probably often incorporated anyway. Of course, CPod is primarily a speaking/listening resource, whereas HSK is primarily a written test, despite the aural component. The two aren’t completely compatible. I would be greatly surprised if CPod alone was able to prepare someone for HSK, but that’s because of the different focus.
I’ve been doing a HSK grammar workbook. I would recommend doing one of these exercise books as through repetition you get the hang of the sentence structures, measure words, patterns, etc. and they include a proper technical explanation for the correct answers which i also found useful. It turns out i’ve been using some words incorrectly all this time that may be ok conversation-wise but not for writing.
I find the things i learned from the workbook are quite different from the current Chinesepod as these workbooks are more technical.
On a tear - looks like the coffee is not good this morning. I’ve been holding back, has anyone yet said that HSK is the pits?
TEN-REASONS TO PUT HSK ON THE SHELF WITH THE OTHER DUSTY BOOKS
1. Studying for the HSK is great for taking the HSK.
2. It takes 8 seconds to level-set your Chinese, just speak with a Chinese person. I takes me about 3 sec to know your English level.
3. Vocab vocab vocab, — okay if that’s your thing.
4. Crazy tricky grammar — okay if that’s your thing.
5. Y200-400 for each test. Once for basic, inter, advanced. That’s Y1,000. Buy me a Apple Nano instead.
6. Motivation — I find Ken more motivating. (Substitute here Jenny instead of Ken)
7. I’m kinda dumb with a limited organic CPU. HSK takes up a lot of room in my head and I’d rather know how to order the food on the Chinese menu instead. Feed the brain.
8. Getting a job, did you ever hire anyone because of great SAT scores or high scores in AP-English?
9. HSK is for school, who can argue against going to school?
10. I’d worry if the only thing I knew about the Chinese level of my war-on-terror secret code message decoder super agent guy/gal was that they aced the advanced HSK.
11. Bonus commentary: HSK 没有用! 你出去说话吧！
I’ve been following this thread and talking to the HSK people in Beijing this week. Let me assure you that we are not, repeat not, going to try to blend ChinesePod with the HSK in any sense.
I also agree that the HSK asw it is, is neither fun nor terribly practical. However, that could change, as there is a revision to it under way.
At the end of the day, it’s up to the individual - take the HSK if you wish to. If we do anything withy it, it will be wholly separate.
Ken Carroll
HSK talk - Hi Ken, I’m surprised at how definitive your last post was. How was that talk with the HSK people? Interesting? What are their views on learning Chinese? What are their future plans? Are they good people?
Lantian (he of the November t-shirt),
We had an interesting talk, and I do forsee working with them, but in a context other than ChinesePod. They are indeed good people, but to be honest, out of touch in many ways. Academically, their views are kind of behavioristic and ‘wysiwyg’ (what you see is what you get) rather than ‘cognitive’… if you know what I mean.
Ken Carroll
I did HSK last week (elementary/intermediate). I have a Chinese degree, but I always concentrated on classical. It seemed fairly ridiculous to be able to read a Tang text, but not the newspaper so I entered the HSK on a whim hoping to get my modern Chinese much better much more quickly. While my reading level is fairly high my tingli was woeful. In the five weeks I prepared for the exam my tingli did improve all down to ….Chinese pod. It was the modern vocab, the lack of it, which let me down. However, doing the exam focussed my attention and I did manage to rekindle some of my modern Chinese. I did find it somewhat depressing to be hovering around the botton of the intermediate stage in my mock exams, so I was delighted to read in this discussion that that’s not too bad in the general scheme of things. The attitudes expressed here are negative in the main. Here’s how I see it. A college in London has just started a teacher training course for modern Chinese - you need a Chinese degree and advanced HSK to get on the course. If you want this qualification you’ll need HSK. What became clear to me as I studied for the HSK was that my knowledge of Chinese is essentially passive. I have done quite a lot of translation and I have taught Classical chinese at university level. I’s one thing to translate accurately into your native language, another to work within Chinese. The unpalatable fact is that to do this is hard. Different people have different strengths - when I was at university quite often the most fluent speakers were not the ones who did well on the reading or written exams. For HSK you’ve got to have it all. I havn’t got my marks yet, but frankly I’ll be happy to scrape into the intermediate, but maybe I’ll not even manage that. But I can read easily most of the advanced level stuff on Chinesepod (unless its about something too contemporatry for me like media/ computers)and can understand the spoken to the level of upper intermediate (most of the time). I’d say to score well on the HSK intermediate you would have to find listening to the advanced level not too bad (on HSK what they say isn’t hard to understand at all when written down, but you only get one shot to comprehend what’s been said)and be able to read all Chinesepod materials easily. Heaven knows what’s required on the advanced. The most difficult thing is being faced with a choice of 4 words which to the non-native all look like they mean the same.
Sorry to drone on - the trauma of doing HSK is still very fresh - but my point is HSK can be useful, and may be vital if you want a career teaching Chinese. Yes, it’s alot of rote learning, but how else are you going to learn lots of vocab. The people who speak the best Chinese are the ones who use the most words. Chinesepod should not, of course, change to respond to the needs of HSK sitters - it doesn’t need to. As I am going to take it again in 6 months and have just taken out a premium subscription, look out for requests for help with obscure grammatical pattens and sets of 4 words that look as if they mean the same.
Keep up the good work Ken and all of you.
Best wishes
JN
An odd thought. For those who are interested, maybe a phone interview (in English/basic Chinese) with an HSK official who can give tips on how to prepare, then post it on the blog.
(BTW, I’m not preparing for HSK so I don’t know if it’s actually useful or not).
Maybe those of us who are doing HSK could set up a little support group within Cpod. Or would that not be possible/ allowed?
JN,
I think a support group for the HSK people is a tremendous idea. It mighte be somethign to post on the forums. The team will be be happy to lend any support we can.
Ken Carroll
How about the Forum? There’s a section where cpoddies group up to discuss various other materials and courses they’re using and exchange info. I’m surprised no-one has started a HSK thread yet.
It was specifically Tony Blair in Britain that I was referring to asking publicly that people help out by getting tested for language proficiency, and I know people in the US need linguists badly but have not made a similar public request, so I guess it’s a European thing.
Ok, hate to disagree, but I do disagree. As someone who has taken the advanced twice,and one day will eventually…..get an 11 (sigh) please allow me to share my thoughts:
(1. Studying for the HSK is great for taking the HSK.)
HSK forces you to learn and address your weaknesses. Instead of lying to yourself that your Chinese skills are great, or believing the people around who are constantly saying how good your Chinese is (and probably saying that just b/c you are a western that can mumble a few sentences)you have to confront your language weaknesses.
(2. It takes 8 seconds to level-set your Chinese, just speak with a Chinese person. I takes me about 3 sec to know your English level.)
Preparing for the advanced HSK can help diagnose some of your speaking issues and also force you to learn how to speak more like a native speaker. You can easily hear the ease at which most advanced certificate HSK students speak, compared with the intermediate students. Granted, an employer can also evaluate your speaking w/in a few seconds, but acing the spoken section of the HSK should at least give you some confidence.
(3. Vocab vocab vocab, — okay if that’s your thing.)
This will help you tremendously in your everday life and newspaper reading becomes relatively simple. The material covered on the advanced exam is very broad and actually quite interesting, so it is worthwhile to accumulate a wider vocabulary.
(4. Crazy tricky grammar — okay if that’s your thing.)
This will help you with your own writing and prevent you from falling into grammar traps which will forever keep you from having near-native ability. How many times do you look at someone’s flawed English grammar and think, isn’t it obvious that that is incorrect? Well, if you don’t understand why what you are doing is incorrect, how can you correct yourself?
(5. Y200-400 for each test. Once for basic, inter, advanced. That’s Y1,000. Buy me a Apple Nano instead.)
So, this just depends on what your priorities are I suppose. I’ll just continue eavesdropping on people when I’m board since people assume the laowai doesn’t understand. This will save me money for the exam and get me ready for the listening comprehension section too…
(6. Motivation — I find Ken more motivating. (Substitute here Jenny instead of Ken))
Sorry, I don’t listen to this website, but I can say I’ve enjoyed my HSK prep courses more than my university courses simply because they are more practical and interactive.
(7. I’m kinda dumb with a limited organic CPU. HSK takes up a lot of room in my head and I’d rather know how to order the food on the Chinese menu instead. Feed the brain.)
Everything takes time, maybe at this point the HSK may not be for your, but as you study it will become increasingly more difficult to make significant progress w/o a specific goal in mind. At least with the HSK, you have a means to measure your progress and will also meet many friends in the process)
8. Getting a job, did you ever hire anyone because of great SAT scores or high scores in AP-English?
In western countries we don’t emphasis exams, but for Korean students the HSK is critical. For the rest of us, I don’t think it is going to hurt you, and at least it can give you some bragging rights. (Yes, unfortunately people do brag about their SAT scores…for a while at least, right?)Secondly, AP-English and high SAT scores themselves aren’t the issue, but the driving force, or motivation that each person has to obtain a high score says something about that individual….
9. HSK is for school, who can argue against going to school?
Well technically, it can help you prepare for the real world in that you will have to gather a slightly more specialized vocabulary. Also in terms of expressing yourself you can learn to select the most appropriate words.
10. I’d worry if the only thing I knew about the Chinese level of my war-on-terror secret code message decoder super agent guy/gal was that they aced the advanced HSK.
The exam is afterall just a test, but someone who can, lets say, get an 11 on the HSK somewhat easily would put me more at ease than some Westerner who randomly lists “fluent in Chinese” on their resume. People studying foreign languages (expecially studying Chinese) are over confident. When you prepare for the HSK you will be humbled by how much you don’t know. I personally don’t think the intermediate exam is a great text b/c it lacks writing and speaking, but I beleive the advanced exam is definitely a worthwhile exam.
Anyway, as you can tell, I support the HSK, at least the advanced exam. It is always nice to look back at exam materials that I use to think were so difficult and see how easy they are now! I view achieving a high score on the HSK as a personal goal, so regardless of how or if I use the certificate in the future, it is more of tool that I use to keep me moving forward towards the goal of being able to use the Chinese language as close as a native speaker as possible. Until there is a better exam (or someone else wants to pay for me to go through more ACTFL testing), then I will just use the HSK.
I agree with many of the points that hEiDaOLaOdA makes, however I don’t think they have much relevance to most people here: after all, how many HSK-level 8-10 subscribe to ChinesePod, he certainly admits he doesn’t.
Yv
I am hoping to get an interpretor’s license and most organizations require some sort of certification of your language. The HSK is perfect for that. Also, the scholarships offered by the government to foreigners who do well are just too good to pass up. I am taking the HSK in May. So, I would be super happy to see prep stuff for it.
Someone at the station should get their hands on copies of practice tests for HSK advanced, intermediate and elementary and design some shows. I am taking the advanced HSK. Wish me luck!
Someone earlier mentioned the HSK has no writting and speaking portion, actually the HSK advanced has two essays you have to write and a personal interview (oral exam).
Charles says: “Someone at the station should get their hands on copies of practice tests for HSK advanced, intermediate and elementary and design some shows.”
Although I have no need for the HSK, I see the potential benefit for general learning purposes if ChinesePod takes Charles’ suggestion. For example, ChinesePod could offer companion PodCasts that are supplemental to the regular PodCasts (not merely a one-time limited series or some online quiz) that asks the listener to use their brain to recall language information in real time and to articulate the Mandarin answer out loud (or to themselves if in mixed company). After a moment, ChinesePod would then articulate the answer in Mandarin. This could suit the dual purpose of preparing for the HSK while also satisfying the needs of those who hunger to use ChinesePod’s PodCasts for communicative output rather than just passive input.
It would be interesting to a standard exam in the sense of a challenge and a way to measure my growth. But I don’t ‘need’ it and, most importantly, from reading comments here, it would not relevantly test my learning philosophy.
Charles,
I quoted you and then forgot to wish you the best of luck on your advanced HSK. Let us know how you make out.
HSK scoring?
I thought I might do a few practice tests, just to you know ‘level set. Ummm….I think it takes a masters degree in quantum mechanics to figure the scoring and rating system.
In my mind, this translates into …. I dunno, and it takes two months to get the score back. AND they want me to pay for it.
Yah right. What kinda crack you think I’m smoking. j/k
—————————-
Chinese Proficiency Certificates
Successful examinees are issued a Chinese Proficiency Certificate for the examination they took. There are three levels of certificates for the beginners’ HSK, namely, the levels of C, B and A.
There are six levels of certificates for the elementary and intermediate HSK, C, B and A for the elementary HSK and C, B and A for the intermediate HSK. There are also three levels of certificates for the advanced HSK, namely, the levels of C, B and A.
Within two months of the test, the HSK sponsor will send by mail the Chinese proficiency certificates and score reports to the HSK organizers. These organizers will forward the certificates and score reports to the examinees.
HSK has eleven score levels, amongst which levels 1-3 are the beginning level, levels 3-5 are the elementary level, levels 6-8 are the intermediate level, and levels 9-11 are the advanced level. The following is the description of level 3-level 8.
I’d be curious to see some example HSK questions from the various levels.
I have a very practical question about HSK.
I live in Shanghai : where do I go to register for the next exam ?
Nicolas, meet Google.
Google, meet Nicolas.
I think it would be great if Chinese Pod had two extra features.
1) Some sort of test that is designed to encourage revision of what is already learnt. Sure exams are stressful, but despite what others may think, I think I would find it motivating to have some sort of “Level” to test against. It would be motivating for me to know that I have made progress in the last week/month/year! I think the secret to introducing this “motivator” (for some people at least) would be to not call it a test or exam! Heck even if it was just sets of podcasts with 200 phrases that people should be able to understand after 1/2/3.. months.
2) Podcast’s that don’t introduce new words, but revise old words. So simply by listening to the next “exciting/interesting” podcast, you are re-enforcing what you learnt last week/month/year. (And hence would prepare for any sort of test.)
“If you want a higher level job though and need to prove Chinese …. ”
Wrong, for LOWER level jobs you need better Mandarin. Mandarin is essential for the KFC counter staff, but not for the CEO in an international company.
TOEFL/HSK - takes about 15 Seconds to figure out if a local knows English or not. Same for your Mandarin. And having passed HSK whateverlevel still doesn’t mean you can talk.
And talking about business, ability to talk is surely important, but WHAT you talk has even greater importance. There are plenty of native speaker in whatever language that are poor communicators. That will not improve with the 2nd or 3rd language.
>doing a Cpod lesson on HSK…
Sure, why not. You had lessons on sickness, disease and robberies, so why not HSK too?
BTW, is google down? All answers are here: http://www.hsk.org.cn
Great sense of humour, Lorean and Fox. You could assume that,if I ask the question, it is because Google or www.hsk.org.cn are of no fucking help to me. www.hsk.org.cn/OnLineReg.aspx requires a good level in Chinese to fill in the form. So I would rather go to a place where I can meet somebody who speaks english and register there. If you don’t have the answer, just ignore the question. Thanks.
>www.hsk.org.cn/OnLineReg.aspx requires a good level in Chinese to fill in the form.
The online form doesn’t work anyway, at least not in my browser. Why not just call the SH number?
2、 上海：上海师范大学对外汉语学院 邮编：200234
电话：021—64322186，传真：021—64321654
I just made a intensive search again in Google, and this site. Apparently, no other choice than to call or go to one of the universities listed there :
www.hsk.org.cn/arrg_srv2time_c.aspx
To find the addresses of universities listed there, copy and paste the name in :
http://www.ddmap.com/mstmap50007/index.jsp
The form doesn’t work with me either.
www.hsk.org.cn : great web site ……………………………
…………………………not !!!!!!