Henning made this interesting comment on this blog a couple of days ago, about the future of ChinesePod.
You are moving fast towards a truely complete Chinese service here - rendering additional ressources more and more irrelevant. Just wondering where this could be heading in 5 years with over 2000 lessons covering everything from marital arguments to spaceship navigation at relativistic speed. Maybe then we will have a calligraphy section here, a chengyu-trainer, an introduction into 古文 (gu3wen2), and a library with annotated contemporary and classic Chinese literature…? Mind boggling possibilities.
This is in fact the kind of future I do see for ChinesePod. At times, I think of it as a kind of linguistic cartography, as if we’re mapping out the stuff that people might want/need to know (and discovering a lot of things along the way). At other times I see elements of the Wikipedia in it: I guess it’s not impossible that it could become the ‘ultimate’ learning guide that could possibly even make all the other stuff irrelevant.
Hank Horkoff was the first one to see these possibilities. Early this year he pushed to ensure that the lessons were discrete packages that could be re-combined according to the needs of the individual. (This is what we now call ‘My Course’.) This in itself had an obvious appeal to me, but it was only in the months that followed that I began to see where it was leading. Now we have this emerging map of the Chinese language that could have thousands of lesson in a few years.
I think this is significant. Compare it with a textbook, where you have, say, 16 units on some very general topics and vocabulary. Whether or not you are interested in each unit, you are expected to go through them because textooks are necessarily linear. They just don’t offer the choice or flexibility that people may need.
So, to answer my own question, no-one knows where this is going, but I do expect it to disrupt the traditional textbook approach to learning Mandarin, for example. (Maybe I’ll speculate about some other areas in another post.)
It’s tempting to say that we knew all along where this was leading, but that’s not the case. We’re figuring it out as we go along. I have no idea where we’ll be in 5 years. I just want to stay in touch with the way it develops, which means we have to stay as close as we can to you. This is a collaboration betweeen all of us. For me, that is a tremendously rewarding experience. I hope it is for you, too.
Ken Carroll
Dang, if Chinesepod went that far I’m pretty sure it would be like nothing elso online…or is it already?
Re pick your own lessons…
People still want to start with lesson one and work through. In the absence of a very strong message to the contrary, that will be assumed to be the right thing to do. If they commence on that path with any lingering doubt, then some of the earliest lessons reinforce this now obsolete sequence idea by referring to the previous lesson. So a wrong (or unnecessary) step reinforces itself. It’s a pity, because a lot of recent newbie lessons are so much better.
The message hasn’t got across that beginners really are supposed to start anywhere they like and select them in any desired order. That message, and I’m not sure where to find it, must be louder than the voice in our heads. Maybe it needs a short explicit statement tacked onto the end of the new intro paragraph at the top of the Newbies section?
By the way, those level page intros are great for orientation. For example, I knew that John was working here but didn’t realise he was actually doing podcast lessons until I read it there, because they’re not on the level I listen to. Now I’d better address him as laoshi
I just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with starting out at Lesson 1 which is what I did, however, there are two drawbacks. By the time you get to Lesson 50 you discover that the Lessons have much more “it” in them and are better presented. Perhaps the first lessons need to be touched up a bit or redone. The second thing is that if you don’t follow the current lesson also you miss out on all the latest discussion fun. I find that I am burning the candle from both ends. It works okay for me I guess but it seems like I will never catch up without running faster and faster. Maybe that’s a good thing though. That way I can graduate sooner and drop the “Newbie” thing
I’m with Bob on the whole candle-burning thing. I’m trying to tackle this from both ends of the Newbie lessons so that I get the feel of the history of the site, as well as stay current with the community at large. It’s certainly a challenge. I’m taking in new vocabulary faster than I can retain it and I find that I need to spend more and more time reviewing what I already learned.
Ken, I have to say I’m always very intrigued by your thoughts on language and learning. It’s such a fascinating subject and you’re obviously quite passionate about it. Have you ever written a book-length piece on the subject? Would you consider doing so?
Aunty, you’re right that we’re not getting the mesage across to how the newbies should use the lessons in thsi sense. We’re trying to make the whole thign more intuitive/simpler to use, and actually reduce the amount of explanations, but in the meantime your point is valid.
Bob, I think it’s great that you’re putting time into this. I want to give you more and mroe reasons to do this.
Frank, I actually saw your email exchange with Hank this week and was planning to write to you. I have thought about writing something, but it’s not something I can commit to in the near future. Let’s keep talking, though.
Ken Carroll
Ken, I actually wrote these comments in response to your “Analytical or Experiential” entry, but now they seem more relevant here. I am too lazy to retype so some of the comments might seem off the wall if you haven’t read that blog.
I think two key components of language learning are experience and explanation. Although spending too much time in explanations is boring, not spending enough time creates confusion. So, really, the important thing is (as you said) to find the balance. For instance, providing example sentences to demonstrate how a word is used, explains its usage by creating experiences. But language learning involves more than this.
My feeling is that Chinesepod has successfully created a new paradigm in language learning, but has yet to create a comprehensive program.
One necessary step to create a more comprehensive program is to embrace progressive learning. The progressive model allows the student to move through material in an ordered (but not necessarily linear) fashion where the later material reinforces the earlier material. Progressive learning is the most efficient way to benefit from language experiences. Yes, there are many language programs and books that accomplish this and fail to engage the student. But there are others which do and succeed, such as Pimsleur and “Integrated Chinese” from Cheng & Tsui. Learning is a progressive process and that’s why most teaching material is organized that way.
It must drive you crazy to hear comments like this, but I am sure it is possible to make Chinesepod progressive without sacrificing its magic. It is just a matter of creating more granularity in the lesson levels and a more structured curriculum. BTW, speaking of granularity, I am still puzzled by the gap between Elementary and Intermediate. The Elementary lessons are 90% English and the Intermediate lessons are 90% Chinese. Where is the middle ground?
Language is learned by experiencing its sounds and patterns until they carry meaning by themselves. (I think this is what Lantian means when he writes about getting the mind to “flip” into Chinese). Effective learning is a process of associating meaning to sounds and being able to reproduce them in a meaningful way. This can only happen through experience.
Others have already pointed out that experience means more than just listening to dialogs - no matter how much fun that might be. The goal is communication and just learning to hear is not enough. We have to learn to speak also. There are a lot of ways to create speaking experiences, but I think the pimsleur method of asking questions and giving a pause for a response has a lot of potential. Although, it would be more effective to prompt the response in Chinese. How about some interactive podcasts using this method as part of the review materials?
That’s fantastic, Ken. I thought you might have been clued in. Regardless of whether or not you’re ready to do it now, please keep it in mind. If not with me and New Babel Books, then somewhere. I think you’d have a lot of fascinating insights and I’d be the first one in line to buy that book.
I have to say that I’m not enjoying Chinesepod at the moment.
I don’t know how else to say it. I’m sorry, I’ve been listening for a long time, and have racked my brain for the most diplomatic way to put it, and I’ve decided to bite the bullet and go for it.
I feel Chinesepod is becoming sterile… we never seem to get any language that isn’t directly related to LEARNING language. I feel that the program is just like a textbook except that it’s read out aloud. And we don’t need more textbooks about Chinese calligraphy, the great wall, the culture of tea… Whenever I get a word EXPLAINED to me I kinda tune out.
I think the block system (each lesson being independent of the others) is problematic too. The whole strength of the podcast is that it’s so quick and natural: Jenny/Ken/John wander into a studio, record something, and it is broadcast. We listen, post, and then the cycle happens again. Or is it really a cycle?
Let’s look at a random podcast, and see the posts. We have someone saying how he has beat Ken 老师 to the first post. Ken expresses his amazement at this. Someone mentions an echo in the recording. Some questions about words. But none of it is mentioned in the following programs. There isn’t a cycle.
Sometimes lesson suggestions are taken up, but this seems to be the only way the listeners influence the broadcast.
These (the posts) are the most immediate way that people respond to the podcasts. They are largely ignored in the actual recordings.
I’m sure that if Ken mentioned that in the previous podcast he had been beaten to the first post, the whole chinesepod community would know what he was talking about. The guy would get a kick out of being mentioned on air, which might seem trivial at first, but might be very useful in building a sense of community.
The poster would get a kick out of getting his name on the show, but it would add so much to the sense of community, of belonging. We’d get the idea the Ken HAS been paying attention to us, even if all we want is to get our name on air.
Also, if Jenny mentioned (in Chinese)that the echo problem in a lesson, it would be more useful too. You could explain the CHinese word for ‘echo’ to me a thousand times, but it wouldn’t be as useful as having it explained once, with an example in the previous podcast.
懂吗？
I’m not sure if I’ve been as succint as I would have liked, but maybe on the next ‘cycle’ (ie post) we can make ourselves clearer.
Max
There is a lot of chatter and I am certainly one of those that adds to the volume. But at the same time if you look at John’s answer to my question on rain in Lesson #58 On Where are My Glasses it is brilliant, expands the lesson and also offers many alternatives usages.
I for one think it is all there. It is a matter of figuring out how to use it. “Chinese on your terms.” I recently suggested the analogy of a University Campus for Chinesepod and I think it is becoming valid. So I think there is the beginnings of study halls, library, social chatter, (on the advanced site its all even in Chinese!)
help from from and too each other. Even great cooking recipies on the foum.
So I just want more and I am enjoying the way the “Campus” is constantly being made over. Its being done faster than Shanghai is being rebuilt.
Mike in Jubei
I think one of the great boasts of Chinesepod is that it is ‘real’: it gets away from the staid and stilted language in the textbook and embraces the day-to-day language as one would encounter on the street. But is this really true? Not everyone speaks with such fine clarity and a calm demeanor as Jenny and indeed Ken in the their bubble/pod that is the Chinesepod studio, even if they are recording while standing up!
What I would like to see now and again is Chinesepod Live! Live in the sense that real interactions are recorded, the good the bad and the ugly. Not the cliched interaction like going to the clothes market or taxi driver interaction although they wouldn’t be bad. Something that you can get hot and bothered about like having the air conditioner or water-heater repaired - something that builds fustration. Maybe Aric would be main role and Jenny could give him some “get out of jail” vocab or translation so that the job stays on track. With some good editing, this Saturday afternoon ordeal could be condensed to some key learning points and an excellent podcast - no video required so budget can be kept low. Now that would be experiential learning as we identify with Aric’s heightened ex-smoker fruatrations and we hear an unfiltered, uncensored real chinese speaking from their heads and not from a written text. Get out of your pod and bring us something really real! - and keep up the good work.
Eddie
Just like to reinforce Eddie’s comment about real chinese. I have got pretty used to Jenny’s voice, but I would like to get some exposure to chinese outside the studio - (In 4 weeks I will be in China for the first time). How about doing some recordings outside and then bringing them back for Jenny and John/Key to analyse and replay with Jenny’s perfect tones.
I think Ken said they tried that in the very beginning, and found the recordings were stunningly unsuitable for learning purposes. Maybe we’ve all had enough experiences by now that we can look again and see if there’s some possibility. The suggestion to bring it back and translate it into neat tidy Jenny-speak would go a long way to making this possible.
It was interesting the other day to hear how tiny kids sound when they speak Chinese. What about big kids? Very old ladies? Very old men? High class beauticians? Sweaty toothless labourers? Parents scolding children? Train drivers? People chatting up puppies in a pet shop? Sport trainers bellowing instructions? People admiring a luxury car or motor bike? Police saying move along? The know-it-all confusing technical sales person? The officous official? A guy telling his mates at the pub about the one that got away? Road rage? Mum congratulating kids after a big school/sport/music/drama success? The differences would be very interesting.
Remember too that apart from a handful of movie stars, you guys are the only Mandarin speakers that some of us have heard. How do you find enough fourth tone words to sound excited or enough second tone words to sound curious, and how does someone who’s very depressed communicate if their tone is flat? OK I’m joking but how do you express these things? Do drunks slur their tones as well as their speech? Can Mandarin sound sexy? Aggressive? Stupid? Timid? Strong? Crazy? Intelligent? Ugly? How does someone sound when they spit a curse, fight back tears, lay on the sickly sweet charm, or come home from the dentist? Are there some people whose voice can shatter windows with a single word? Let us hear them all.
Now THAT would be interesting.
Anything to get away from the endless ‘接下来的词呢，叫做。。。‘
I think chinesepod producers have to remember that the goal is not understanding of the new dialogue each lesson, but a more rounded proficiency in mandarin as a whole.
I think Aunty has some great ideas here. We’ve experimented with various types of register and had a good response - from the listeners (the airport thing was an example). We’ve recorded a number of other experimental things and you’ll be hearing them soon.
I’m glad this discussion has taken off. In terms of innovation, even radical innovation, I’m all for it. But that doesn’t mean I can just go all out and start doing it. As Sue mentioned, authentic, unscripted dialog, recorded outside the studio sounds immensely attractive, but after hundreds of hours of work on it, we can’t get it into the format that would work for learners - in natural speech, people are more or less unmanageable. (I hoped, in vain, at the beginning of all this, was to create the world’s first truly authentic language program - in any language.)What sounds great in theory dosn’t always work in practice.
This is only partially an excuse, but it’s true. The other issues are (A) Most people actually like a set format,to a point, and will complain if we change too much, and (B)We have many newcomers every day who would be perfectly happy for some months with a ’standard’ format. The point here is that not all learners have the same need for newness, as Max obviously does.
Another issue is that many kinds of innovations would work only at advanced levels - the newsreader, the policeman, the drama, etc.
BUT, having said all this, I’m in total agreement that we can innovate, much, much more. We have to understand, however, that the medium is kind of the message, and that ther are constraints on what we can do - this isn’t experimental art. So, Max, feel free to comment, but I need concrete suggestions, not just feelings. Get them to me and we’ll take it fom there.
Ken Carroll
Ken
I don’t understand the difficulty! I have seen many times on UK television, for example, language programmes where they take the microphone out into the street and talk to people. The themes are the obvious ones: buying a ticket, buying food, asking the way etc etc … I think you could even just get someone from the community who speaks ‘bad’(!) mandarin and get them to talk (and then explain it afterwards). This last suggestion comes from a girlfriend I have had from Guangzhou whose mandarin is something else - ch/zhi/c/ all mixed up, cant say ‘n’ and uses ‘l’ so its lihao not nihao
Ken, I’m thinking more at the lower levels, simply because that’s where I am. Here’s an example of how I imagine it could be done, let’s pick the pet shop one.
You go in and tell the manager what you’re doing and get his OK. You ask customers if you can record them talking to the puppies. Ten or twenty customers. They’ll all be different, but you might get six of them saying the same thing, “what’s your name little one, coochy coo, aren’t you a sweety!” or whatever. That’s enough words. Then you (or the academic folk) pick two or three diverse voices saying the same thing, and throw away the remaining hours of tape. Add Jenny’s rendition, comment that coochy coo is used for dogs but never for humans or whatever you find interesting in there, and pod it! You could do a standard lesson on that text, and at the end instead of a recap, play two or three voices doing it in the real world. Fun elementary stuff, and the more advanced ones are even easier.
By finding phrases in common, you’re going for the high frequency, real everyday language, and also reducing a long natural dialogue to a manageable utterance for study. A similar method could be used at the train ticket queue etc etc, or buy some brickie a beer and ask him to tell you all about his new Harley and pick a few phrases out of that which suit the pedagogical goals - e.g. the lesson could be a simple one about how to profess superiority of something you have or do, with this guy’s rendition of a lesson phrase at the end for fun. If he doesn’t pronounce sh like we do, that’s fine, just say so.
@Antie: Sitting in an appartment in Beijing right now with between 6 and 9 Chinese persons of all ages jumping around me all the time I can assure you: You fiend the whole spectrum of utterances…and they use exactly the language you hear in the podcasts (except some locale Beijings RRRs thrown in here for comfort). Unlike my old language tapes the podcasts feel like the “real China”.
And actually there are already some true marvels in the archive regarding that “real life feeling”. Like the “Airport Anouncements”, the “Friend Song”, or the excellent Upper Intermediate on “Bargaining” that I just re-heart today.
I just miss the English in the Advanced section, because I learned a lot from that level as well (although I am far, far, far from being Advanced) - also contentwise, e.g. about the food systems or the one on tea. I repeat myself here, but does it really hurt that much to have translations at least at vocabulary level in the Expansion? The subjects and the vocabulary in the new Advanced shows are really intesting but I cannot follow them anymore without any translational grip.
Regarding the materials: I really think that steadily accumulating “fixed” contents like the Pinyin-Chart, the Grammar-Points or the yet-to-come “measure word trainer” is what makes it really interesting.
Unlike “Homework”, “Personal Tutoring” or “More expensive lessons based on recordings on the street” that kind of content incurs one-time costs only and can be handled without the need to increase headcount.
BTW：If the Cinesepod-team is indeed not afraid of additional costs I would suggest that you provide comics with (interactive?) translations. I found that comics are perfect learning devices because you have all those clear visual clues.
I see Ken’s point. Essentially there has to be a McDonalds approach to the podcasts - they need to look, feel and sound the same both for the drive thru (ipod) customers as well as the sit-down(PC/Mc) ones and get it done within the 10 or so minutes. That’s the formula and if it ain’t broken…
Also the university sector that Chinesepod is pursuing need to have this reliability so when, say, the professor assigns several podcasts he doesn’t get the feedback “the first two were good but the third was weird!” So innovation must be within certain confines, the predictability of a textbook you might say.
So the best we can expect is maybe one word/phrase snippets from the street that pull the curtain back but doesn’t mess too much with the formala. If we get longer, unwieldy dialogue then we might need to give Ken a sledgehammer to “break it down” for us.
Eddie
Ok, picture this (I’m using the example of TaiQi):
We strap a microphone to John 老师 and take him down to Nanjing East rd at 7 in the morning. (This is a main street in Shanghai where every morning senior aged citizens practice TaiQi) He might describe what they are doing (in English) to the listeners. He then approaches someone asks them what they are doing. (I am 100% sure he’d find someone to talk to)
Cut to the studio:
Jenny: “That sounded like fun.”
John: “Yes, it was. You don’t know from the audio, but as I recorded this, thousands of people were crowding around the interviewee and I.”
Jenny: 很好奇哦！
Jenny: “She used (such-and-such) a word, maybe our listeners don’t understand. It means （such-and-such)”
John: (in English, as he has been doing more and more of recently)
*continue on, going through all the vocabulary the woman uses*
Jenny: She mentioned how few young people are taking up TaiQi. It seems to be happening a lot recently. In our interview with a calligraphy master last week, he also mentioned it… (conversation flows from there)
et cetera. Perhaps an attached pdf with the transcription of the interview, and maybe a ’standard’ rereading for subscribers, and an ‘uncut’ mp3 of all 3 hours of John老师 wandering around Nanjing rd trying to get people to talk to him.
We would we get more ‘natural’ speech, and our friends not lucky enough to live in China might find out how friendly your average guy on the street is.
怎么样？
Ken
I don’t think you have to be so defensive about this. I agree it sounds great but is not easy to do. I just go over to Danwei to get exactly some of this without the explanation that is so useful on Chinesepod.
Since I assume it is a small world in China do you know Jeremy ? I was wondering if there is a way to interview him all about this ?
Mike in Jubei
Abraham Lincoln said you can please some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. Same holds true here. I hope ChinesePod sticks to the knitting and continues to do what’s gotten it so far, so fast. How should one “flip” ? How should one take it to the next level, and make it part of your dna ? I’d suggest it’s going to be very, very, very hard, if CPod is the only way you learn chinese. I think you need class or private instructions. There is no better way to learn than having a chinese speaker next to you. There are tutors on the website, and there are tutors in any large city in the world, more or less. I think you need to get skype and talk to chinese people on your phone or computer. You can’t talk in a foreign language by listening and watching only. I think you need to go out and buy some of the wonderful chinese languageCD’s, DVD’s, audio tapes, etc that are available in any major city in any major country ( well, you know what I mean ). And that are referred to in the forum. I think you need to listen to chinese radio stations and watch chinese tv stations (if you have in your area). I think you need to stream podcasts in Chinese - China has more podcasts than you could ever listen to in your lifetime. Theres a great one called Vivian - sort of China’s version of Oprah Winfrey.
Basically, unless you have the oportunity to live in China, ChinesePod should be used as a key component - perhaps THE key component - in your chinese language studies. But not the only component. We are all learning Chinese because we have a desire to know how converse in mandarin. A podcast and pdf/flash lessons will never get us to a level to converse in chinese - we have to do that ourselves. I think there is ample material allready on the site that we can take and run with, and go out and practice with - on our own.
That’s just my thoughts, and because I’ve lived in China maybe I am biased. But ChinesePod is never going to offer an immersionary component - we the students individually can take it a lot farther than Ken and team can. Doesn’t mean that suggestions should be ignored at all, just that there is always going to be someone with a new idea or suggestion. Stick to the knitting.
In my opinion
Mike,
I think John knows Jeremy Goldkorn. I’m not quite sure what questions you have in mind to ask him, though.
Ken