He’s everywhere.
If you live in China you may have seen the CCTV 9 show, Travel in Chinese. It is aimed at foreigners who want to learn Mandarin. I’ve seen bits of it over the last couple of months, so today when it came on, I took out my notebook and did a quick review. If anyone has seen it perhaps we can compare notes.
In some ways Travel in Chinese is reasonably good. The host, a Canadian known as 大山 (Da Shan) does a pretty good job of presenting. There’s no doubt that the guy speaks pretty flawless Chinese and he knows his stuff. (Da Shan is the most famous foreigner living in China, invited on an almost daily basis to participate on national TV, mainly because of his pristine Mandarin. ) I also like the set in the studio.
Ultimately, however, the show has some major failings. From its ungrammatical (if not meaningless) title to the sad amateur actors, it wastes a great opportunity to make an interesting show. There is no hint of originality about it. The format is identical to every such show that I’ve seen in the last 12 years - CCTV produces a Mandarin instruction series every year. On cue, they invite Mandarin students (probably from Bei Shr Da) to act out the little scenes that even Robert De Niro couldn’t make interesting and put them into a series. We’re talking dull. Ouch.
Recording on location (today it was in in the hair salon) is a sure fire way to look sad unless you have really top-notch lighting. They don’t have really top-notch lighting. I would have thought the sound quality could be better, but it was not - even in TV studios here, the sound quality is often very poor for some reason. Although neither great lighting nor perfect sound recording are essential for learning, the fact is that the show comes across as unattractive and amateur and completely lacking in any enthusiasm or passion.
Meanwhile, Da Shan may be a great student of Mandarin and PR man, but he’s not a teacher. It’s obvious that the whole show was put together by non-teachers, as evidenced by the glaring pedagogic errors. The level, for example, is messed up. It appears to be a lower intermediate show, but today’s vocabulary focused on items like how to use “you yi dian” and other items that no intermediate learner could benefit from. This led to examples and explanations that served no purpose. And that lack of originality meant that every explanation/pattern was just plopped down in the same way without any teacher creativity to bring it to life - “Why don’t they try to make it a bit cognitive?” I kept asking myself. Actually, I know why.
Another problem is that you can’t see the text - they never show you the text for the main dialog. Why go to all the hassle of doing a TV show if you’re not going to show the text! I mean, what the hey? As the actors speak you get the English translation simultaneously in subtitles. This is a fatal mistake to my mind - the teacher should always get learners involved by letting them figure things out for themselves before the explanations. This means that if there were parts of the text that you didn’t get or wanted to explore, you couldn’t see it - you had to make do with the examples that Da Shan provided and those came mostly in the form of a laundry list. Not much lexis there!
I wanted to be more positive about this show but as I wrote it became clear that Travel in Chinese is wanting. I’ve worked a bit in the Chinese media - enough to know the kinds of constraints Da Shan faces, but that doesn’t help the learner. At the end of the show I looked for a website, but there was none. I doubt that anyone could have learned much from this show.
Ken Carroll
I haven’t caught this show, I have seen some CCTV9 streamed over the internet but usually watch CCTV4.
I have seen a couple of ‘learn english’ programs on Chinese TV though. One was called ‘Joleen learns english’ or similar and didn’t seem too bad I even learnt a little Mandarin from it. The other I don’t remeber the name of was awful, sounds a bit like a reverse version of the show you describe.
Then I recorded a bit of another program where this Chinese guy was nattering away very fast in both Chinese and very advanced English, occaisionally interupted by a talking bear with a squeaky voice. It wasn’t a kids program though. Might be helpful when I get more advanced.
I have noticed that the Chinese seem to be exposed to quite a lot of English snippets, especially on kids TV. This must help their ear for English a lot.
Is this a foreshadowing of the return of Video Hotpot?
哈哈，我们知道了，cpod是最好！ What can we say, other programs just don’t compare to Chinese Pod. Unless someone decided to make a show filled with Jenny clones…hmm.
During my pilgrimage to the China Bookshop in Sydney, I saw that guy’s photo on a number of very expensive sets of DVD courses, but I thought I’d recalled that they were produced by the (British) BBC.
In each photo he was standing there doing some different dorkish thing with his hands. Is that a Chinese thing? Do those hand positions have a meaning? If so, how many are there? Is being in China like being at an auction, where scratching your nose can accidentally buy you a seaside villa and/or put you on the wrong side of The Mob?
Looks like you can get transcripts for the dialogues here http://english.cctv.com/progra.....ndex.shtml
I got what I suppose was the video dialogue for lesson one (five minute arrival to China on a plane thing here). The text for the dialogue was also here and I managed to get the hold of the transcript for the dialogue in Chinese Characters.
Looks like they also have started adding longer videos from including other bits of the show (haven’t tried any yet). Not sure myself yet on the quality of input, but I am sure at some point in the near future I am going to want lots of intermediateish level input so these might plug a gap. I will grab and archive the lessons for later.
BTW the video was supposed to be a streamed Windows media play affair, the web connection was too poor to stream properly. I have a set-up where I can record this stuff to hard-drive though and grabbed the episode this way (the speed is irrelevant then). I bit beyond the scope of this post but I may expand further some time. Grabbing chunks of Chinese media for later use can be very helpful. I don’t even like football but I was fascinated to be able to watch the Chinese commentary version of the Argentina Mexico game over the net.
Couldn’t do the same with the England game as the connection got too busy. But as everyone was watching the footie today there was little network load and all the other streaming media from China came through load and clear.
I think the stuff on the web maybe useful to some people if they just want to plug a gap in Chinese input at some stage. The first lesson was a bit beyond me, I could understand little bits and I am sure I could pick it up quickly if I used to Chinese text as a study aid.
I agree with Ken, the English subtitles are more of a hinderance at this level, and it isn’t easy to deliberately ignore them.
The production of the show is really not important, I agree with the subtitle comments. But this show is very old now and I dont think its very helpful to anybody.
People in China seem to know only two famous Canadians, one is Dr. Norman Bethune and the other is Da Shan (known as Mark Roswell here in Canada).
That TV series in China was financed by the Canadian government’s sponsorship fund, which became one of the biggest scandals in Canadian political history:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/e.....441441.htm
Paul,
Wow. I never knew about all this political intrigue. I doubt that Da Shan had any involvement with the finances. Of course not - he’s Da Shan! I kind of admire what Da Shan has one. He’s definitely unique and I guess he’s done a lot of good through bridging the gap, etc, etc. Maybe we can contact him and see if he would participate in our CPod activities.
Hei long, I think the production quality is not THE most important thing in a language whow, but it IS important nonetheless. Presetnation counts. Good presentation sends the signal that someone has taken the time and effort to do it right. Like any other endeavor, someone has to really care about the end product or it won’t turn out very well. My feeling is that the producers of this show have not given it enough thought, enough care. It’s kind of on auto-pilot.
Ken Carroll
When I studied Chinese at college my laoshi would go on and on about da shan. She used to bring in videos of him - not as an instructor but as a sort of stand up comedian. I like his animated style. My laoshi also used to show us another Chinese series which I believe is called “ni hao beijing!” has anyone heard of this? it was quite poorly put together, but the dialogues were hilarious, and I got a kick out of it! It seemed to involve an on-going relationship between a “bumbling idiot” and the beautiful girl he pined for. He was always in precarous situations and seemed to break a lot of valuable pottery!
Aha! Thanks Kelly, I’ve been wondering what’s on that video that I picked up in a box of Chinese learning books, and now I know. I finally picked up a video machine last weekend in another box of junk, though I understand you need to have a TV to plug it into. I’ll lug it all over to a friend’s house and take a peek.
BUDGETS - Wouldn’t you have like that budget. Never let anyone say that’s things are necessarily cheap in China, money can certainly be spent.
“”Da Shan & Friends in Canada” has 26 parts and lasts about 13 hours. It reportedly cost nearly C$400,000 (US$330,000) to make each part.”
Maybe they spent the money on really good snacks for the cast and crew?
SO CLOSE - Okay, I watched the video clip on shopping. I really only have one question, why is everyone standing so far apart from each other? j/k
http://english.cctv.com/progra.....1154.shtml
Luckily the video stream quality is poor enough that my eyes can blur out the English sub-titles. No way that English helps with the vocab portrayed in that lesson.
I see two approaches or lessons-learned from this:
(1) Cpod can make better videos, heck the BackDorm Boys could make better videos.
(2) Ken, forget about the student-subscription Cpod business model and go for the biggies, national budgets. Get out your ‘guanxi list’ which btw I have not forgotten about, and start drinking it up with the boys that hang out at the various embassies, chamber of commerces, and entertainment conglomerates. After you’re able to secure that ‘funding’, the rest of us common-income Cpoders will just get to relish in the subsidized productions you put out, of course you’ll probably be filming/podding on location at some five-star resort at all the best locations in China. We won’t fault you for that. But make sure that your co-hosts get good lighting. Of course proper make-up and shade will probably add to your allure.
(3) Don’t forget to include a ‘client retention and promotion’ clause in the budget to take care of ‘umm you know, us Cpodies.
LIGHTING - Actually, if they just opened up the lens a bit, to blur out the background and bring focus to the participants and edit/mix that in with proper filming of backgrounds and images it would make it more appealing. I guess that would raise the production standards and increase costs. Maybe subsidies from at least two major G-7 nations are required to meet the expectations of Cpoders.
Lantian,
The video you linked to was actually quite good. it came across better than the show I saw the other day.
We’ve got big plans to do, I hope, big things. This includes video and the collaboration of an organization that may be able to keep our CPodders in the style to which they have become accustomed. Onwards and upwards and make-up where necessary.
I really like Dan Shen because he is the only person I could find teaching chinese on tv that really made sense to me. I learn fast from him and felt that his teaching style works well for me. I like the whole set-up of having a dialogue with english subtitles only because as I get older I’ve resigned myself to learning the spoken language and not necessariy the written. I just can’t retain the characters. It’s more important to me to learn the spoken language so I can speak with my relatives. I think whether you ultimately like the instruction style of the show depends on what level you are at and what you are focused on learning. I live in the US and am half chinese. It was really hard keeping up the language and I find myself longing to learn more, to speak better. This show works for me and I’m even looking into if Da SHen has videos that can be purchase. I’ve found it very difficult to find good chinese instuction shows on TV. I do agree it would be nice to have the chinese characters underneath the english subtitles for this show but I’m taking whatever I can get.
Thanks
Snow
I am of the opinion of Snow and wonder if there is video that can be pufchased
Oh, another thought I hope someone has an answer to: Why is it China has only one pure English station, CCTV9, yet they want their people to learn English… (or maybe they don’t?). I mean, they even play all these western movies on CCTV6 and others, yet leave them dubbed. Why not play the original English with subtites, at least for half the movies, or maybe CCTV6 have English and CCTV8 have Chinese. And is there even a chance the get CNN or BBC over there? I would think they are going to have to by the time the Olympics come. Yes, I know this is already in hotels, with satelite, but I’m talking about regular cable. My parents came to stay with me in 2005 and my dad didn’t understand why he only had CCTV9 to watch, and the shows weren’t that great.
Look at :
http://english.cctv.com/progra.....ndex.shtml
there is a spelling mistake at : “Internatoinal marriage”. And “Internatoinal marriage” is under the Actors/Actresses names…
The Bulletin board starts its first line with :
” class=text>The web version of …
Even a blog written for free does’nt show as many mistakes.
NB. When you read my comment, these mistakes may have been corrected in the meantime.
I also agree w. Snow. I first learnt Chinese at the Beijing Languages Institute in 1976 (ah, them were the days….) and now living in Hong Kong, find that my Mandarin can get rusty. I find Da Shan’s show a bit of fun and good “fu xi” for me. I want my son (learning Mandaring at the local school) to see it, and came to this site by looking for DVD’s of the show, or to find out where I can find a streaming version of it, so I can suggest to the teachers that they incorporate some of it in their show.
In contrast to a number of comments here, I didn’t find the production poor, or the content irrelevant, (you should have seen things in the seventies, says this “old man”…) and the stilted actors don’t really matter. I find it useful when Da Shan gives an example of a usage, then it’s used in a couple of examples. I would like a DVD, cause there’s nothing in language learning like *repetition*!!
If anyone knows where I can get DVDs of this or other good shows, please email me at forsythe1@netvigator.com. Of course, I must also have a look at this China Pod site and the work of Ken Carroll.
(just been called to cook my son some breakfast, so must off, cheers to all).
peter f
Fu Saisi,
I certainly wouldn’t compare myself to Da Shan as a Chinese speaker. He’s a seriously accomplished practitioner. It’s kind of his job, I guess.
I’ve never actually studied Mandarin formally, nor am I qualified to expound upon its finer points. I see my job as bringing a more general knowledge of the language learning process to the lessons. I’ve studied a number of languages but I’ve also taught English for 20 years. I guess I mix these two elements in the podcasts: I try to approach them from the perspective of a learner, but also from the perspective of how good language instruction should organize and present material. As long as I have Jenny in the studio I guess I don’t need to be ultimately fluent. Maybe this approach is what makes it different.
Ken Carroll
All the stuff you could ever want about dashan.
http://www.dashan.com
>If anyone knows where I can get DVDs of this or other good shows,
You are in Hong Kong? Try Book City in Shenzhen. I havn’t looked for 大山 in particular, but his material is otherwise very common.
Go to Lowu, take the subway to “Kexueguan” (4th stop) and ask for the “Book City” exit.
I’ve watched this show and many others on CCTV for 4 or 5 years now. Basically I think they are put together by Chinese producers etc who have less knowledge of English than they think they have. English translations are often poor, plus there are glaring vocab and pronunciation errors by some presenters.
My biggest complaint is that there are often chinese presenters, interviewers etc who I presume have been hired because they spent time abroad in an English speaking country. So it’s easy to know just where they studied by the accent or phrases etc they use. I’m perplexed that Canadian, USA and Australian born presenters, interviewers, appear to be used in CCTV9 programmes as opposed to UK nationals.
I currently teach conversation English in Spain to university students and professionals. My Chinese wife and I are shortly to move to China where I will teach in a similar manner. I fear many of my students are going to be marked down if I am supplied with US spelling etc. Especially those who I will be expected to provide with UK orientation help.
Da Shan is as good as he is allowed to be. I believe he is just a parrot repeating what he is told to say. His mandarin is excellent, however he does not write scripts etc; build sets or choose locations. I think he is just doing the best he can with the tools he has. Maybe if the UK government had funded the programmes we could have had an English; Scots; Irish or Welsh presenter.
Hello Da Shan
I am moving to Luoyang in a few years to live. I was wondering if you had any advice in the best way to learn my wife’s laungage (Mandrian).
As i am scottish, when i say something in chinese that my wife has taught me,other people still can’t understand me. I think it’s mainly because of my broad scottish acsent.
I would appriciate any help you could give me. As i have seen you a few times on cctv9, I thought you would be the best person to ask after watching you speak chinese.
Thank you
yours sincerley Mr P Brannan
Hello Da Shan (aka Mark)
All my Chinese friends tell me that your Mandarin is flawless.
I’ve been lecturing English at a Chinese university for just over ten months and have signed up for another year.
I’m striving to improve my Mandarin and I watch your show whenever I can. I think you and your show are great. What I really like about it is that I can assess my own progress by how much of your dialogues I’m able to follow.
Pity about the recent black-dyed hair though; you need to be just who you are, a Canadian who happens to speak excellent Chinese.
I appreciate your show and look forward to watching you again on my return from Australia in September.
I hope to meet you some day.
Regards,
Neil .